Wednesday, November 07, 2012

One Thing This Election Taught Me...

I am not a Libertarian.

I guess I had always defined Libertarianism with my own ideals. During this campaign, I "liked" the Libertarian Party's facebook page. Even sent them money at one point.

But, social media backfired for the Libertarian Party in my case. I saw what they really are, not what I wanted them to be. I saw the dippy shit their supporters wrote and posted and I watched as too many of them handed this election to Obama wrapped up in a bow.

Many are strongly anti-war and pro-choice.

Being anti-interventionist is a pre-9/11 mentality. According to some of their ridiculous memes, this party learned nothing on that day.

They also make the mistake that the Dems make and assume that a baby is part of a Mom's body and wuss out of taking a stand for it. They can call the Republicans all the playground names they want...but Republicans take a stand for what they believe in.

I am into Reagan strong, not Ron Paul girly man.

Libertarianism should be RIGHT of Republicanism because of the limited government, but somehow some Ron Paul people went to Obama instead of Romney!? What does that tell you? That even declared and voting Libertarians have no friggin' idea what they're talking about.

I am a Conservative Republican that has always wanted to say that she was a Libertarian because I do believe in a small, efficient, disciplined government that does not presume to decide what's best for its citizens. But, I also have a brain and believe there are shades of political gray and self-righteousness can't erase that.

So, now we get 4 more years and then Hillary in 2016.

Dear Libertarians...I hope you lose your second amendment rights. I don't have a gun, so I dont care and it will serve you right...



Mark said...

Thanks for this - it hits the nail exactly on the head for me, too. I was trying to explain to my wife last night that I liked some ideas that Libertarians have, but it didn't seem like those ideas were how things play out in that camp.

Bram said...

Here's what I learned - the social "conservatives" are done. They managed to lose the two easiest Senate races in the country (Missouri and Indiana) by spewing stupidity. They may have taken the rest of us with them.

I am a Libertarian. I believe in Civil Liberty and Economic Liberty. Freedom is freedom. The details of Libertarianism are debated daily at Reason. I don't always agree with - particularly on immigration, but I'm with them far more than moderate Republicans.

Anyone who voted for Obama is not a Libertarian, whatever they call themselves. Obama is a complete failure for any kind of freedom.

I will work for Rand Paul and similar candidates for 2016. (Not that I'll have any money) I will do everything I can to destroy social "conservative" candidates and the fascist that the Democrats have become.

jim marquis said...

Love the picture on here, especially the last square.

As far as I'm concerned, libertarianism is the political equivalent of World of Warcraft. Lots of fun, wasted time.

Ala (and I swear this is an honest question)- how do you feel about the way Republicans handled women's issues in this election?

ALa said...

There should be no "Women's issues." There should be country issues. When the country thrives, it's citizens thrive.

If you mean, what do I feel about the fact that I can abort my baby in NY....but I can't have an 18oz Coke and a smoke? I think the Republicans failed because the Dems assumed that the majority of women in this country are pro-choice and they're not...

Then again, what do I know. Maybe they are. We are a secular country that worships at the alter of ME ME ME. I guess I am a relic that values family and life and hard work...

ALa said...


and Elizabeth Warren? really?

Maybe I should run and say I'm Black.

ALa said...

AND, MSGKeith found this quote that sums up the entire election:

“When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.”
~Benjamin Franklin

Bram said...

Women's issues - another way to divide, pander, scare, and buy votes. Some with Black issues, gay issues, Latino issues, etc...

free0352 said...

Well, it was a real, focused effort to cost Republicans the election. One I donated money to and worked hard to make happen both with my time, and money.

I was happy to see Romney lose, not Obama win.

Now after that happens, we knew Republicans would be mad at us. Thats fine. Be mad. But remember, you will not win another election without us.

Be that as it may, there is nothing government can do that cannot be undone. The world will turn, the sky will not fall. But now you will get to see what living in a Socialist country is like. I guess Romney wasn't so "electable" after all now was he? Perhaps in a few years, instead of kicking us to the curb you'll be a little more interested in working with us... even if you don't like our Facebook page.

Or not, I suppose you might have grown used to losing elections.

Jpck20 said...

If only the GOP had a guy worth anything to run. I mean fucking Dumbo could have beaten Obama, but Romney couldn't.

While we are all going to be slapping each other around for a while over this, the real issue is why cant the GOP come up with a REAL conservative candidate???

We need to get some of our up and coming people ready to run in 2012, people with a track record of conservative voting and beliefs. I mean lets be real, Romney wasn't even close to conservative. I know we are all bitter as fuck that that piece of shitand all of his unbearable sycophants have another 4 years but we have one hope: The House.

For at least the next 2 years the House will be our bastion of defense, our Khe Sahn, our Bastogne against the blind brainless liberal horde. The one thing I could influence in CA was who my House Rep was and he got re-elected to continue the fight. I j

Jpck20 said...

Free has a point. Sometimes its got to get worse before people wake the fuck up.

free0352 said...

People here may be pessimistic about 2016, but I'm quite optimistic. Funny thing about socialism, eventually run out of other people's money. Obama will turn from blaming Bush to blaming Congress, but it won't work. The next four years would have been very tough no matter who was elected, and now all the really bad things that America is and has to go through will be on Obama's watch. When you see it in that light, you realize the Democrats are doomed.

free0352 said...

As for Abortion, that issue has been fought and that issue has been lost. 30% of the Libertarian party is pro-life, which is certainly more so than Democrats. I'm one of that 30%. But it really doesn't matter. The issue has been fought and lost.

So, time to move beyond it.

As for the war on terrorism, Republicans bungled it for 7 years. Democrats continued to bungle it, and now it will be bungled for another four. I have no confidence had Romney been elected it would have been any different.

Rickvid in Seattle said...

Hillary is quitting DoS, no doubt in order to set up a run in 2016. Slo Joe will be out of the picture. maybe she will choose McKaskill or Fauxcahontus? Girl on girl?

Let's see, how might a Rubio/Jindal style ticket work?

CrabbyOldMan said...

I agree with ALa that the Libertarians are really a fringe group, unworthy of the support of any serious person. Free0352 and his ilk are the proof.
However, I do agree with Free0352 that the abortion battle has been over for decades. I also think that this issue, more than anything else, cost the Republicans the election. Abortion will continue to cost the Republicans elections until they jettison the issue.
I think that the national party's future is in conservative (i.e. common sense)economic and national security positions, with the remaining social issues left to the state governments.

free0352 said...

You lost by 1%. Our "fringe group" could have won you the election last night. We had about 4% to give you actually. What you got was 0%.

So go ahead, bitch, moan, complain. Hate our guts. But next time around perhaps you'll learn we are a force to be reckoned with, and unlike Conservatives we really don't claim separation from the GOP and then blindly vote for it. We put up or shut up, and we shut you down.

Its kinda childish to claim "Hey, you started it!" but hey, lets face it. Your party treats us like dirt, and you still don't like us much. I and like 99% of Libertarians gave up on you EVER liking us enough to give us a seat at the table. So we're going to take a seat.

Here is the reality you have to face.


Let that sink in. I know you folks don't like it, but you lost by 1%. You needed us more than you thought you did, an we simply were not there for you.

Hurts doesn't it?

Well, if you want to avoid the pain in the future, time to start taking us very seriously, and our policy very seriously. If you don't, well... get used to this feeling you're having this morning.

Fearthuinn min an Saille said...

Ok, how in the fuck do you get this hope that we lose our 2nd Amendment rights? We're not. Ammo may get expensive, but we'll still be able to buy guns.

If you believe in political gray and are against self-righteousness, then why did you go with this year's vintage of Republican? They're just as self-righteous as anyone else.

Also, even if all the recorded 3rd party voters voted for Romney, He still would be 1mil votes short. So how many die hard religious right Republicans take the blame for this loss? Might as well toss them in your rant, too.

You're welcome, now buck up and make some changes. Evolve.

free0352 said...

I don't know about that. We could have delivered Ohio for them for sure, and Florida which as of this is still too close to call. Maybe even Colorado and Iowa. That would have meant a Romney win. But they tossed us out on our asses last year. So, so sorry. You can't kick someone in the nutts and then expect their support.

Fearthuinn min an Saille said...

Free, I agree with you. I don't know how it would apply to the individual state counts, but as far as the popular vote went, it wouldn't have been enough. They'd need the stay-at-homers-because-he's-not-Christian contingent, too.

But I'd definitely say that they need to stay away from the social issues for a while. Too much of a risk of foot in mouth disease with that stuff. That was the only reason they lost those 2 races.

All the blame for this loss is on the Republicans, no where else. And to play that blame game deflects from the real issue, and won't result in any future gains if they don't take a good hard look at their platform and their campaign tactics.

Bram said...

COM - You want a much smaller, less intrusive government and you are willing to let issues like abortion go.

Congratulations - you are a libertarian! Or at least 3/4 of the way there. Give up on the drug war and you are there.

Mr.Nimbus said...

Every time I hear someone say that a third party vote is wasted or that they do nothing more than act as spoilers for mainstream candidates I laugh like hell. The reason the political system in this country is so shot is because the voters in this country forget that they have a voice. They pick party over personal beliefs and then wonder why they are continually ignored or disappointed.

Seriously... let this sink in for one moment... many of you here backed or at least voted for a milquetoast puppet who has absolutely nothing in common with your personal beliefs. You did it simply because he had an R as party affiliation. You had absolutely no idea of what he would do once in office because his entire record was one of contradiction and appeasement. He was a mental blank slate and the poster child for insincerity. Yet, you somehow miss the point that YOU wasted YOUR vote on him.

Although Free did not come up with the concept, he completely nailed it; “Thats fine. Be mad. But remember, you will not win another election without us.”

That is how movements start. An individual can be successfully ignored, but a group of people can't. If a party cannot serve you, then you have no reason to serve that party. So yes, maybe a third party may fail to achieve victories, but in the long run, mainstream parties will have to answer to them.

Hey Free - welcome to the "ilk" club. You'll get some abuse for it, but at least you have your principles and integrity intact. I've always respected that about you; you put your money where your mouth is.

The Cassandra Page said...

Here is an explanation for yesterday along with a theme for the next four years. We are about to learn what Obama meant by "revenge."

free0352 said...

Thats exactly how I feel about it. I didn't waste my vote, they wasted theirs. And hate us all they want to, that hate will make courting us in 2014 and 2016 all the more painful than it need be. Libertarians and Conservatives are natural allies... let that sink in. ALLIES. We are not the same, but we can surely work together more so than Conservatives can work with Democrats. There will just have to be some Conservative pride swallowing first. We've been doing it for 35 years, so its their turn to be the one to bend over.

Bram said...

I'm still amazed that Ala is blaming Gary Johnson.

The Old Men who run the GOP pick a terrible candidate - the only other guy who has his name attached to a crappy healthcare plan. They shit all over Ron Paul and Gary Johnson during the primaries and the convention. The god-squad types make their stupid statements a bigger issue than this terrible economy.

The Republicans figured out a way to lose to Obama despite every advantage, and it is the fault of the Libertarians? Seriously?

free0352 said...

Well sometimes Bram its hard to admit the problem in the relationship is "you."

I know libertarians are sick to death of following along like good little sheep and never getting a thing for it.

Payback is a motherfucker.

ALa said...

I never mentioned Gary Johnson. And EXACTLY. The powers that be picked Romney. Not me. Not my kids. Not all the other millions that didn't want Romney but knew he was better than Obama.

But ya know what...Romney wouldn't have elected UBER LIBERAL SCOTUS judges and Obama will and you "Libertarians" are the only ones to blame. Even the three of you here can't agree, let alone a whole party of you.

Yes, I'm REALLY fucking pissed and I blame all of you because you're intelligent and informed and unlike the masses you know it wasn't all Bush's fault and you know about Benghazi and you closed your eyes and stuck your nose in the air while Rome burned and that's fucked up. You are worse than the Obama phone chick.

Paint it whatever way you was foolhardy and dangerous and I doubt I'll be over it any time soon...

Bram said...

For the record, I held my nose and voted for Romney. I truly didn't want 4 more years of this insanity.

But the Republicans really better change their ways if they ever want to get elected again.

Fearthuinn min an Saille said...

I didn't close my eyes to shit. I voted the way I did because mine are wide open and I'm not about to let the Republicans hand me a half added candidate with no balls or ideals and expect me to cow and fall in line. Be pissed. But direct it at the RNC where it belongs. They're the sad asses that handed you this candidate, and you did your good little job and ate him up, whether you're willing to admit it or not. YOU voted for him. Those who didn't agree with his platform AMD record, but voted for him anyway are to blame. We voted for someone we actually believed in. Sorry you couldn't do that, but that isn't our fault or problem. It's yours. Live with it and come come to grips with it.

CrabbyOldMan said...

A party that can muster less than 5% of the electorate can bargain with major parties in a parliamentary multiparty system.
However, in our two party system, any issue that picks up real support gets adopted by one of the two major parties, provided that the issue is seen to gain more votes than it loses.
I think we can agree that the majority of voters DO NOT SUPPORT EITHER OF OUR IDEAS. They supported the Marxocrats.
Let’s assume that the Libertarians can pressure the Republicans into adopting some Libertarian issues. If the majority does not like the ideas, the Republicans will lose, and everyone realizes it.
For better or worse, a minority is not going to be able to force its' view on the majority. Period.
That is the fundamental flaw in all your fantasies.

Jpck20 said...

They'd need the stay-at-homers-because-he's-not-Christian contingent, too.

I think it was more than just this segment that stayed at home. I think a lot of conservatives just didnt like Romney because he wasnt a real conservative regardless of religious beliefs. He didnt offer anything much better than Obama to be honest. And free hit it on the head. If the country is going to be fucked up, and nothing indicated Romney could have fixed it, why not let it be on Borbamas watch?

As far as Ala's comment about SCOTUS, yeah, thats a huge concern. Hopefully none of them drop dead or retire in the next 4 years.

CrabbyOldMan said...

I see your political views as having similarities to the Marxocrats economic views.
The Marxocrats seem to believe that wealth is finite, so that if one group becomes richer, the rest have to be correspondingly poorer. They do not accept that the amount of wealth is dynamic, with the changes making everyone either richer or poorer.
You seem to think that the Republican followers are a static group that would be, say, 48% without the Libertarians and 51% with. You completely miss that by taking the steps necessary to add your 3%, other support would drop away. In what turns out to be a center left country, the Libertarians would drive away much more support than they add.
You get no leverage beyond what your actual numbers merit. You undermine your credibility by asinine behaviors. You do not further your cause.

Zelda said...

I'm mad at everyone right about now. Mostly I'm mad at the press. Obama is a failure on so many levels, including his handling of Sandy (if we're going to judge by the standards to which Bush was held).

At the same time, I want the Libertarians back.

ALa, you know we'd vote much more happily for a Republican backed by the Libertarians. With Romney, we got NOTHING. He wasn't pro-life, and he wasn't a fiscal conservative. He was the candidate for a bunch of old, establishment Republicans. I don't even think he would nominate a decent SC justice. Look at fucking Roberts.

So I'm done with the pragmatic voting. Done. The Democrats are going to make life absolutely miserable. When people have had enough and the Democrats have no one else to blame, they will vote for anyone else. When that happens, I don't want to be stuck with a Romney.

Nate said...

I find it really interesting how this contingent associates safety nets with Marxism.

Jpck20 said...

Nate, I associate you with being a fucking idiot. You may want to go the fuck away for a few days. We will turn on your asinine ass and rip it to shreds in a split second. So, for your own good, GTFO. Asshole.

Stix said...

Libertarians just preen about and want people to stroke their egos.

And if they cared a lick about Liberty they sure as hell would not allow the WON to get re-elected, and help stop the train wreck we got in the White House now.

Bur no, they voted for someone that has no chance of winning and will be irrelevant after the elections are over.

And BTW good luck trying to convince the Republicans to take any of your policies after giving them the shaft. Elephants do not forget.

Anonymous said...


Tell me what state Gary Johnson got more than Obama's margin of victory.

free0352 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
free0352 said...

Factoring Gary Johnson's returns doesn't factor in all the states like mine where Repubicans worked it so he wouldn't be on the ballot and we didn't have the choice, so we stayed home. Fact is, Republicans had a lower turn out of registered Republicans than they did in 2008. You have to ask yourself why that is. Its because those Libertarian minded Republicans stayed home. Bottom line, had they voted you would have won. You lost by 1%. You lost. Your "moderate" concept of a candidate failed and failed miserably. Your notion of "electable" failed, it failed miserably. The elephant might remember, but while its remembering it might want to consider this...

It needs us more than we need it.

free0352 said...

You used the Kamikazi analogy once. Well I gotta ask - whose plane just went down in flames and whose party got stronger? Turns out you folks were driving that VBIED of a candidate all the way to 2nd place, 1st loser. We told you so a year ago, but you didn't listen. Reap the whirlwind. Enjoy the next four years. Call us when you want to start winning elections again.

Jpck20 said...

What I think Free's message is this: That the GOP needs to listen to Libertarians in looking at possible candidates and especially in the Primary phase. Take their ideas, especially around fiscal conservatism and apply that. Yeah some Libertarians also espouse some loony tunes shit like anti-war and the like, so we leave that out.

If the GOP runs a solid conservative candidate who can resonate with the base, thats a much more agreeable option for everyone than running a fake like Romney.

Free + co are saying, 'you didnt even listen to us and look what happened' and he's right. The GOP sold its soul to the Devil to hand Romeny the primary, told everyone else to pound sand and lost.

If we run an actual conservative candidate that we can all be enthusiastic about, we wont NEED the libertarion 1% to win, it will already be with us. Thats the whole message.

Fearthuinn min an Saille said...

What Jpck said. I have no issue with voting for an actual conservative with a record. But you guys have to get one.

And from the looks of it, Johnson is going to start being more visible over the next 4 years, so guys best get cracking.

free0352 said...

Well, since Allen West just lost I'd suggest giving him a new job running the RNC.

CrabbyOldMan said...

Letting Ron Paul and his children vent at the convention would have provided the Marxocrats with a huge propaganda lightning rod, enabling the Marxocrats to tag the whole party with Ron Paul's wackiest ideas. That would have made the defeat even worse than it was and leave lots of baggage to carry through the next election besides.
I'm wondering if there is a salesman among the Libertarian purists here. None of you seem to understand that you don't get new converts preaching to the choir. You have to have a product that the BUYER wants. You will convince no one by saying "but this is MY favorite".

Bram said...

Letting them vent? WTF?

How about letting their electors vote? How about treating them like they are part of the Republican party and deserve a voice at the convention? Notice it is only the Ron Paul / Gary Johnson supporters who are below 50? Your old white man party is dying.

Instead, Romney and the leadership treated them like dirt - then expected their support. Now they are crying because they didn't get it. Tough shit.

CrabbyOldMan said...

You and Free0352 have been big on hurt feelings and small about adressing the Paulites scaring away more votes than they could have brought to the table.

Jinxie said...

Romney wasn't my choice by any means, but he got my vote.

I do agree with Jpck, that we need a conservative candidate that the libertarians can get behind. I even agree with Free on his point that we need the libertarians to win an election.


I can't help but feel betrayed by 4% of the country.

I guess I understand after reading these comments that you guys were trying to make a point.

Still. I'm pissed at you. Extremely pissed. And whatever bad things happen in the next four years, I'll be blaming you, not Romney.


Fearthuinn min an Saille said...

Saw an interesting image today. Was the amount of votes that Paul got in the primaries, vs the amount of votes that Romney got in the general election. Huge difference in Paul's favour. I'm willing to bet that it was split between democrat leaners who didn't like Obama, and republican leaners who didn't like the rest of the field. When Paul lost, the democrat leaners went back to Obama and the republican leaners were split between Johnson, holding their nose, and staying home.

So yeah, the republicans are going to have to do some some evolution, which might be difficult for the religious wingnuts, as they like to deny the fact that the theory exists. Heaven forbid Darwin was right, even in regards to thought processes.

free0352 said...

Its had to claim the 4% who stayed home/voted third party betrayed you. Betrayal suggests we had at all promised our help.

I think we made it clear almost a year ago that not only could you not count on us, but that many of us would actively work against a Republican win. I know I did.

How about letting their electors vote?

Exactly. This isn't about a stupid speech. I was off the reservation as far back as 2008. I haven't been a Republican in four years. I haven't helped any Republicans in two. I mean really, you're going to run a guy totally antithetical to my values, play politics in internal RNC elections and the primaries to lock us out of choosing that valueless motherfucker, and then play more politics to get our third party protest vote kicked off the state ballot and after all that this is what the RNC tells us -

Yeah we shut down your voice in the party and kicked you off the state ballot. But gee, now you don't have an alternative. Better vote for us!

Well excuse me no, fuck no. I'd rather vote for Obama after that. They tell ou this you understand, after we carried the water for largest push back in political history in 2010. WE not "conservatives" stopped the Obama agenda cold. Who the fuck do you think organized all those tea party events? What party do you think the Koch brothers belong to? Seriously? What did we get for our hard work? The money spent, and the time invested? The door to door, actual physical work that by the way - none of you on this blog took part in, at most you showed up at an event - what did they tell us? If we had run more moderates we'd have picked up more seats, we were screwing things up, and by the way get the fuck out of our party.

Well okay assholes. We said bye-bye. Good luck. And what happened. You lost. YOU LOST. As a matter of fact, fewer registered Republicans, let me say that again FEWER REGISTERED REPUBLICANS VOTED THIS ELECTION THAN IN 2008. That was the people the party elites told to go fuck themselves. Good job RNC.

But let me hear again how terribly "electable" Mitt Romney was. Lets hear about that again. He lost every swing state.

Lets contrast that with 2010, where we got people that NEVER would have won elected. People like Allen West and Marko Rubio who never would have had a prayer before 2008. Yeah we lost some, but our win record was damn good. Better than any before it. Better than the Contract with America.

And then you told us to go fuck ourselves.

Well, jokes on you, bitches.

This isn't hardly about a speech.

free0352 said...

Personally, this is how this is. I don't care about Republicans being mad. I don't care if they ever get over it.

Just remember next time - we made you lose last time. And we can do it again. That is the lesson.

Jinxie said...

Yep, you made us lose. Well done you! And now, you and your child have to live with the consequences. Have fun with that.

Anonymous said...

News Flash! It WAS ALL BUSHs fault! If you
Can all still whine about Carter then we have decades to complain about Bush....

free0352 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
free0352 said...

I can live with it just fine. I did after all live in the tightly controlled world of the military for 12.5 years. Question is can you?

My question is how can you be in a corrupt party and then complain about Democrat corruption? Oh you don't think so? What about at the convention when our delegates were on buses waiting to go vote, an the Romney camp used its connections to hold the buses, who wouldn't let its passengers off, and then used that time to change party rules to lock us out?

Yeah, oh boy can I live with it.

Jinxie said...

We'll just have to agree to disagree because all my energy for talking about this stuff is zapped.

Still love ya tho Free.

Eff That said...

Binary thinkers (those who think in black or white only), MUST choose a team in this binary system we have. Libertarians are the closest thing to middle ground without being totally independent. The world is about balance and neither Democratic or Republican is balanced at all. The most balanced organization is Libertarian, and that scares those who have chosen a side and their egos now defend that choice out of fear of looking stupid. You should take Chris Rock's advice and look at issues individually, and ignore rhetoric from either side. And stop shitting on those who wish to break apart this 2-party nonsense. You are exactly wrong. There should not be parties at all, but there are, and Libertarians are by far the closest to being balanced and sane in their judgments. But I'm sure someone on here, who has chosen a side, has an ego that will tell them to use their emotions to react to my statements will say something ignorant, and prove me correct, again. Don't defend your "team", defend the truth. Balance.