Thursday, January 20, 2005

Ms_Liberty's Logic

This excerpt was taken from the comments section on JB's Cruel World... It involves the infamous Ms_Liberty, Aunt Bitchy, JB and of course ME (or I wouldn't be reprinting it...)
This conversation is in response to the 19 year old Modesto, CA Marine that shot two police officers, saying that he would "rather die than go back to Iraq":

Ms_Liberty : Andres Raya, another dead because of Bush.
I wonder if chimpy knows, that the blood on his hands will keep him from ever meeting Jeebus!

Aunt Bitchy : I read this story and really do not know how you might attribute his death to Bush...ok...HE WAS A LOON! (water in Modesto must be tainted)
...whether it was the war or not...why did he not just put a gun to his own head or down his throat...why involve the surrounding neighbors, store clerk and police...

I am sorry but he signed that dotted line to Join the "all volunteer army" ...that means under all circumstances whether you agree or not...why are people suddenly unaccountable for their own actions??? Blame him...he held the pen.

...he might have not wanted to go back and that is understandable,
but to blame his behavior on Bush is really ridiculous. So ridiculous I almost did not even respond.

Ms_Liberty : Aunt Bitchy, the U.S. wouldn't be in Iraq if it weren't for Bush, so this guy killing himself because he didn't want to go back to Iraq is indeed the smirky chimp's fault!

Aunt Bitchy : Of course it is not his fault for joining the army which would in turn take you to war...nah, that would be logical.

Ms_Liberty : So aunt bitchy, you think that having an army means you have to make war? (I'm trying to understand this stupid-ass, callous position.)

Ala: These boys obviously know that there is a VERY good possibility they will be deployed if they join the military... Disturbed people join the military too... Talk to a Vietnam vet -they'll tell you...
He disgraces the soldiers that leave Walter Reed and go back after serious injuries because of their duty and obligation to their 'brothers'...

Ms_Liberty: Interesting that the right-wingers themselves bring up Vietnam. lol Remind us all how necessary that war was again? hmmm...
Dying for a worthless cause like looting a country for oil is what disgraces the troops!

Ala: Uh...check your history books sweetie...it was a DEMOCRAT that took us into Vietnam and a REPUBLICAN that got us out...
If the war was about oil we'd be in Sudan too...don't ya think?

Did you oppose Clinton's 'war' in Bosnia...it would be a bit hypocritical if you didn't as Saddam killed WAY more people than Milosevic did... I didn't oppose that war, by the way -I want to help people in need regardless of what party is in power...

Jericho Brown : Nice try, ALa. We didn't use human rights violations as an excuse for this war until after it became clear we weren't going to find any WMDs. The time to strike Saddam for genocide against the Kurds would have been when Bush I was in office. He, of course, did nothing.

Ala: I will repeat myself yet again...In Bush's SOTU he gave the American people FIVE reasons we were going to war with Iraq...WMD was ONE of those reasons...The most important reason? Yes, of course...but Clinton, MI6, The UN, France, Germany and Russia said they were there too.
If we would have done nothing and New York was hit with something, the liberals would have been the first to scream foul play --to say that Bush hadn't acted against Saddam even after 9/11 and all the other countries told them about the weapons...Ugh, this is SO tiresome...

Ms_Liberty : ALa, What the fuck are you rambling on about?! You never seem to respond directly to anything.
Again, remind me why Bush was right to attack Iraq!!! Where were the WMD????
Here you go, ALa. Read the resolution, then try and defend the dirty little chimp!
- To truly understand the level of deception and sleaze used in taking America to war, I believe everyone should read Congress's resolution first. Public Law 107-243
(Notice the twenty-three conditions to war contained within)

Then read the Presidential Determination in which Bush merely spits back the "whereas" statements from the original resolution as if there was any evidence supporting him!

Ala: Clinton went to Bosnia without going to the UN or to Congress...
I addressed the points directly...It's not my fault if you have no reading comprehension...

Ms_Liberty : President Clinton led NATO diplomatic and military efforts to end the war, install peacekeepers and establish rules for governing a democratic Bosnia after the loss of 250,000 lives and the exodus of 2.5 million refugees. The peace brokered in Dayton has been sustained, a civil society complete with active opposition parties and non-governmental organizations has taken root, and national and local elections have taken place throughout the country.
Face it, ALa (and other neo-cons). Clinton was a success; your guy's a complete failure!
Bush is the idiot son, who rules like a blind bull stomping around a china shop.

Ala: Success?! The woman I sponsor in Bosnia fled from her home TEN years ago and has STILL not been able to return...
I was going to write you a translation of one of her letters here describing the "Success" of UN peace-keeping troops there and of NATO and how "safe" they all feel there...but I can't find it -Damn......I will keep looking...

Ms_Liberty : In the words of King - "We can no longer afford to worship the god of hate or bow before the altar of retaliation. The oceans of history are made turbulent by the ever-rising tides of hate. History is cluttered with the wreckage of nations and individuals that pursued this self-defeating path of hate”.

"A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual death.''

Ala: You, the most combative and nasty person on the blogs to date...have no business qouting MLK...

Ms_Liberty : I don't have a right to quote a great civil rights leader? And why's that, ALa?
Martin Luther King Jr. belongs to all Americans who believe in social justice, sadly you can't count yourself in that category since you're a war sympathizer (and you even manage to white-wash the most disgusting war of all, the Vietnam war).

So if anyone hasn't a right to mention the Rev., it's you!

Ala: I didn't (bring up King), I just don’t think he would approve of your tactics Mumia...
You really can't read can you... About Vietnam I said:
"Disturbed people join the military too... Talk to a Vietnam vet -they'll tell you..."
-and-
" Uh...check your history books sweetie...it was a DEMOCRAT that took us into Vietnam and a REPUBLICAN that got us out..."
Please explain in 50 words or less how this was 'whitewashing a war'...did I even talk about the war itself...uh, the answer to that would be a resounding NO...
If you need it S-P-E-L-L-E-D out for you (which you obviously do) I was referring to when the US Government dropped standards when they needed to pull more people into the draft (that would be when Muhammad Ali actually scored high enough to be drafted)...It was called McNamara's 1000 (the lowering of physical and mental standards)...
...Many of the veterans believe that many of those that came home with serious mental problems had in fact gone in with those problems. I was writing this in response to the article about the 'soldier'...making the illustration that just because one is serving does not mean one is free and clear of mental deficiencies...
Did I write S-L-O-W enough for you?

Ms_Liberty : Many of the veterans believe that many of those that came home with serious mental problems had in fact gone in with those problems.

What a bunch of bullshit propaganda!!! Vietnam fucked those vets up. Just like this crack-ass conflict is doing to a whole new generation.

Besides the blood bathed violence, there's depleted uranium causing damage and weird milaria meds that soldiers are being forced to take.

(During Vietnam soldiers were damaged by similar circumstances for example, Agent Orange.)

Btw ALa, since Martin Luther King Jr. was a true progressive who believed in social justice/programs and was anti-war, I'm sure he'd approve quite readily of passionate dissent during this time of great tragedy and back-sliding in the U.S. I

It is you who is completely out of touch with the ideals of MLK. I can't imagine you ever considering civil disobedience, you mindless goose-stepping twit!

Ala: "goose-stepping"... Ok, I would've bet you were like 22 from your writing, but that 'term' leads me to think you may be in your sixties...aren't you the mystery girl...

Look up MacNamara's 1000 -1967/1968...lowered mental standards to be drafted (you may have even been eligible)...It's a historical fact...(I know you guys hate those pesky things)

My father served in Vietnam -I think he knows about it a little more than you learned from NPR's ‘Wars Revisited’...

MLK/Gandhi were fighting a governments not terrorists...pacifists and hawks alike will be beheaded...I would actually love to hear what MLK had to say about Al Qaeda... I respect MLK -even if he was a philanderer...

Ms_Liberty : And of course, here comes the back-handed Republican compliment to King, with a mention of his affairs. You people are so obsessed with sex, yet have little problem with violence.

ALa seeing how your dad served during Vietnam, you should know better!
(Then again, if he was actually in Vietnam rather than Germany you might be better informed.)
...combative.... -
Ahhh, we finally got to what you dislike most about me, I won't back down or give up like most liberals. The problem is I don't get anywhere with you either. I only bother because I can't stand the last word being a Repug regurgitated lie, sometimes the truth has to win...*clinging to that hope*

Ala: Mumia -Actually (once again) you are wrong...the ONLY thing I like about you is your pit bullishness... I respect your combative nature (even though it's wrought with wrong-headedness and vitriol)...what I was saying was that KING wouldn't like it. YOU wouldn't like MLK either though. Have you ever actually read 'Letter from Birmingham Jail'? It is ensconced in God and Christianity as much as it is in civil rights and disobedience... And you have made it quite clear on more than one occasion your disdain for people of faith.

MLK's affairs are pretty public knowledge...it was not even a Republican, but a DEMOCRAT favorite -JFK, who taped him in the act... Priceless...

I know plenty about Vietnam...as my father was in the jungles outside of Saigon...and is not one of the ones who went in mentally disturbed, so has no problem talking about it...The war was waged poorly (of course -a Democrat was running it) and it was fought politically and not to win -most likely because of all pressure from the freaks back here that the Dems can't ever stand up too...I blame your ilk for the sheer casualties there...

Ms_Liberty : Ala, Vietnam was unwinnable but most importantly unjust and unnecessary! I can't believe that's even up for debate. No wonder you think this Iraq invasion makes sense.

Btw, how can you blame me for the casualities??? If it was up to me, we wouldn't have attacked Iraq unprovoked like Bush has.

And it wasn't JFK who taped him but rather J.Edgar Hoover! Duh!

Ala: JFK had him followed and taped...(you're right, he wasn't holding the camera himself...)

I don't think any war is just if you're not fighting to win (and better lives/stop evil)...then it's just a senseless loss of lives. If this war begins to look like it's not being fought to win --I will not support it anymore...

Ms_Liberty : So Ala, do you think we're fighting in Iraq to win something?
What exactly is the prize?

ALa: The prize is democracy in Afghanistan and Iraq...look at a map honey -that means Iran is now surrounded by American-friendly governments (the real reason for the war in my opinion). The prize is the end to beheading by radical Islam...HOPEFULLY the prize is the fact that once Democracy takes foot people living in third world 4th century squalor can see that there is another way besides hate and death and throwing candy when the Twin Towers come down...the PRIZE is what you liberals always claim you want (but don't yet realize that we have ALWAYS had to fight to get) ...some semblance of PEACE...

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