Tuesday, October 26, 2004

Hey McAuliffe, Is That All Ya Got?

Yesterday the news and internet was a-buzz with news of ‘another Bush bungle’…a stock of weapons stolen in Iraq. Even Christiane Amanpour’s husband (yes, she is married to a Senior Kerry advisor) said, “There were Weapons of Mass destruction and Bush let them get away.” This story was part of an ongoing investigation by the New York Times and (you guessed it) CBS. The Times reported, "The huge facility, called Al Qaqaa, was supposed to be under American military control but is now a no man's land, still picked over by looters as recently as Sunday." The story gleefully took up the front page of the NYT (reminiscent of Abu Ghraib) –and people from Florida were reporting that, along with their local papers, the New York Times was showing up on their lawns and in their driveways…even when they’ve never had a subscription.

Is this it? The DNC’s October Surprise?

The problem is that unlike the DUI charges in 2000, that were leaked the weekend before the election, they sprung this too early and last night it was already being rebutted. NBC is reporting that they had a reporter embedded with the troops who entered this area and "the HMX and RDX explosives were already missing when the American troops arrived".

Jim Miklaszewski of NBC said: "April 10, 2003, only three weeks into the war, NBC News was embedded with troops from the Army's 101st Airborne as they temporarily take over the Al Qaqaa weapons installation south of Baghdad. But these troops never found the nearly 380 tons of some of the most powerful conventional explosives, called HMX and RDX, which is now missing…The U.S. troops did find large stockpiles of more conventional weapons, but no HMX or RDX, so powerful less than a pound brought down Pan Am 103 in 1988, and can be used to trigger a nuclear weapon."
The AP is also reporting: "…Since the disappearance was reported Monday in The New York Times, ElBaradei said he wanted the Security Council to have the letter dated Oct. 10 that he received from Mohammed J. Abbas, a senior official at Iraq's Ministry of Science and Technology, reporting the theft of 377 tons of explosives...

...The letter from Abbas informed the IAEA that since April 9, 2003, looting at the Al-Qaqaa installation had resulted in the loss of 215 tons of HMX, 156 tons of RDX and six tons of PETN explosives.”

…The war began in the end of March…

Each time someone talks about the Bush Campaign ‘playing dirty’, I can only shake my head in disbelief… Fake draft, social security scare, keeping minorities from voting, fake documents, and now missing weapons (that the Kerry campaign is calling WMDs..I thought there weren’t any WMDs). I WANT the Bush campaign and/or the RNC (hello…Ed Gillespie…) to start playing dirty…I am WAITING for it…Where are the pictures of Kerry and that little intern that fled to South Africa? The tape of Kerry telling Teddy Kennedy that he intends to re-instate the draft to cover his promise of 40,000 more troops in Iraq? I thought we employed the ‘Republican Attack Machine’…where the hell is it? Was the ‘Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy’ a myth? Is Karl Rove actually a man and not the anti-Christ?

Hey Karl…don’t let me down…hold it until Saturday…and make it GOOD!

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Since the 'party of free speech advocacy' has struck again...you can Go Here to watch 'Stolen Honor' in its entirety...

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The Man's mother lives in one of the other swing states (FL) and is not a big Bush supporter, in fact for the past 6 months she has been telling us that she was casting her all-important-swing-vote for the Melting Candle (much to our dismay). She called last night to tell us that she has voted early...and low and behold had voted for Bush after all...

"Because of the hurricanes?" I asked --she is not one to think much about National Security.
"No," The Man answered, "Because Theresa Heinz said that Laura never worked...that really pissed her off..."

Well chalk one up for THK...I told everyone the more she talks -the better off for us!

41 comments:

Donal said...

Strange so according to you the fact that Bush failed, in the war he started, to safeguard 380 tons of high grade explosives is a Democratic plot? Intresting so the senior official at Iraq's Ministry of Science and Technology is a secret Democratic operative. As for calling them WMDs what else can you call 380 tons of explosives which just half a pound of HMX brought down Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland, in 1988. Also I'd like to point out that these explosivies were not in the hands of terroists before the war but they are now. Combine that with the fact that 90% of the containers coming into the US are not inspected. That scares the hell out of me. And all this happened on the watch of the man who claims to be making America safer.

ALa said...

No, (did you read the quotes or the current stories about this?) what I am saying is what we consevatives (and NBC's reporter and the senior official at Iraq's Ministry of Science and Technology) have been saying ALL ALONG...that the WMDs were moved BEFORE the war during the time we were pussy-footing around with France Germany & Russia. Notice the letter from the senior official at Iraq's Ministry of Science and Technology, Mohammed J. Abbas, says the weapons were gone BEFORE April 9, 2003...BEFORE our troops were there. Remember the satallite pictures of those semi-trucks going into Syria? This is called a FAILED October Surprise --notice CBS intended to break the story Oct. 31st before it could be proven FALSE...
So see, you can feel better knowing that John Kerry and John Edwards weren't wrong... there were WMDs -and thank God we have a President who had the balls to deal with it!...Now after we win, we have to figure out what to do with the UN who were ACTUALLY the ones to allow these weapons to fall into the hands of the terrorists!

Bigandmean said...

I plan on going by the UN when I'm in New York and asking Kofi to do some splaining. If I'm not happy with his explanation I'm going to ask him and the rest of the UN to move and volunteer to help them do it. We could use the parking space.

Donal said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Donal said...

Ok trying this post again. Yes I have been following this story. According to Iraqi officials told the International Atomic Energy Agency — the U.N. monitoring group — earlier this month that the explosives were looted after April 9, 2003, when U.S. forces entered Baghdad. IAEA officials verified that the explosives were still at the site and under seal in January 2003, the last time the inspectors were there. What also suprises me is that apparently the Bush adminstration didnt know anything about this. The fact that it is a "suprise" to them is something I find worrisome. Also I dont belive CBS had a "plan" to report this news now- the interim Iraqi government notified the IAEA of the missing 380 tons of explosives on Oct. 10, and the IAEA passed the information to the U.S. Embassy in Vienna on Oct. 15. According to McClellan, Bush learned of the missing explosives days later. Where did you see that CBS planed to air this story the 31st? I've seen nothing about that and would like to see that story. It must be easier to blame the news organizations for bad news rather than the bad news itself. Also it wasnt the UN this stuff was located and under constant monitoring by the IAEA. Plus its after April 9th according to the Iraquis not before. You say "thank God we have a President who had the balls to deal with it!" Yes thats Bush all balls and no brains- it explains so much.

ALa said...

You can not 'loot' 10 truckloads of chemical weapons...at least TEN eighteen wheelers... You may also remember that looting and insurgency started after this -this was the day (or the day after) Saddam's statue fell. The 101st Airbourne was there on the 10th and NBC has video footage of them surveying the site. I just finished watching an interview with an NBC reporter that was there and said there was NOTHING with IAEA tags on it. NBC has also reported that Bradley was going to do this story Sunday night on 60 Minutes This is where I first read that...

RBP said...

Ala71, you should be a spokewoman for dubya, because he has not offered one word of explanation one way or another about the 380 tons of missing explosives. He was asked directly about it today on the campaing trail, and just made that face he makes when he gets mad at a reporter for asking him a question he doesn't like. You remember that face, from the debates?
You're much better at explaining things then he is. I would even vote for you, for something, maybe not president, but something.

KERRY IN A LANDSLIDE!

ALa said...

JFM: I can explain the silence too (imagine that). Bushie is not going to let Kerry win with this non-issue and get off message 11 days before the election. he will stay on-message and the press will hash this out and Bush will look like the bigger person for not lambashing the NYT and Kerry --his minions will do it for him.
Hey JFM: Did you here I have been right all along...(imagine that too! LOL) The NYT reports that Bush has a higher IQ than Kerry...No One on the right is surprised but it must be a BIG blow to you lefties!
"Now, Bush bashers should get ready to wince, moan and groan: The New York Times reports Bush is not only a brainy guy, but may actually be smarter than the other Yale-educated presidential candidate John Kerry.
Reports the Times: "Mr. Bush's score on the Air Force Officer Qualifying Test at age 22 again suggests that his I.Q was the mid-120's, putting Mr. Bush in about the 95th percentile of the population, according to Mr. Sailer. Mr. Kerry's I.Q. was about 120, in the 91st percentile, according to Mr. Sailer's extrapolation of his score at age 22 on the Navy Officer Qualification Test."

Sailer's analysis was called credible by Linda Gottfredson, an I.Q. expert at the University of Delaware. She told the Times she wasn't surprised at the results or that so many people had assumed that Mr. Kerry was smarter.

"People will often be misled into thinking someone is brighter if he says something complicated they can't understand," she said."

Read it and weep sweetie! Apologies can be sent to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.....

RBP said...

Oh, Ala, you really have a love/hate relationship with the NY Times don't you? First,you lambaste them for the article about the explosives, then you sing their praises for the Bush IQ story.
What do you think the average voter will be concerned with?
And let's face it, higher or lower IQ points, who LOOKED dumber during the debates, and in their entire public life. There are books written about Bush gaffes.

ALa said...

There are books written about Kerry gaffes too...fortunately for Bush his are grammar mistakes --while Kerry's are burning down innocent people's villages, shooting at people in free-fire zones, lying about men that are more decorated than he and shooting some dude in a loin clothe in the back....hmmmm...wonder what the American people will worry anout more -'Bushisms' or WAR CRIMES?!

(thanks for the perfect set-up BTW...)LOL

Kat said...

Readiing the UNMOVIC report from Feb. 2003 (quarterly report on their activities), which would be the report prepared for Oct-Dec 2002, and the report from Jan to March (May 2003 report), it is pretty apparent that the UNMOVIC team made a quick survey of 380 sites (including 44 new ones) at the end of 2002. What I find really interesting is how many site visits they performed within that time frame.

While they had 200 and some UNMOVIC team members, fully half of those were support, administration and analysis. That is not the actual number that was in Iraq. So, how could they have made indepth reviews of the 380 sites in three months. Looking at it, with 90 days in the quarter (roughly) they would have had to perform 4.2 site visits per day. These are spread out all over Iraq, so we aren't just talking about taking a stroll from one site to the next.

According to the Feb 2003 report, these visits were quick fly bys to insure all of the seals and tags were in place. They found several areas where there was new material without tags or material where the tags had been removed and made plans to return to those sites and tag them.

No where do they provide a list of sites and the last time they were visited. By this report, we can at least assume that they were visited somewhere between Oct and Dec 2002.

Based on the May 2003 report, they spent Jan - Mar (part of it anyway), interviewing people and going to the new sites and tagging banned weapons, like the Al Samoud missiles, etc. As well as going to some old sites where the seals and tags had been removed to replace them. Again, no list of sites or dates provided on the internet.

considering that the claim on these explosives by UNMOVIC was that, when they last saw them, they had their original seals and tags in place.

By that statement, I can rightly infer that the last time anybody other than Saddam and his boys saw the explosives, it was 2002. AT least three months before the invasion.

That's at least three months to plan and remove said materials.

The most important part of this whole issue is the "looting" aspect. Who goes to a military base and only loots the RDX? How do you move 380 tons as a "looter"? Seriously, a toyota truck can only carry about a ton of materials. Any idea how many "looter" vehicles it would take or how many days to clear a site with that much material?

And the military says all that was there was regular munitions, shells, guns, ammo, rpgs... tell me that somebody would "loot" the RDX and leave the convential weapons behind?

it doesn't pass the smell test. whoever took it had to figure the logistics of removing that much material and had a reason to remove it only. Could be even during the confusion of the lead up to war that an enterprising commander of the area sold it on the blackmarket or had it removed for their own reasons, but the most likely scenario includes a consolidation of assetts in another area for use at a later time that never came.

Anybody think that, on the eve of invasion, Saddam didn't give a damn about IAEA seals?

That's my take on the situation. No way it was moved by itself by "looters". It is logisticaly impossible as well as improbable that anyone would take that and leave the rest of the stuff behind. Those explosives need detonators and other things to work with to be effective. The other materials there would be more useful to a "looter".

It's a lack of logic that puts this out, nothing more.

RBP said...

My favorite "Bushism" does not involve grammar, but lies: "Major combat operations in Iraq have ended..." May 1st, 2003.

And that stuff you quote about Kerry is well known and has been rehashed on this very site over and over and over again. In his testimony before congress he was reporting the findings of the Winter Soldier investigation, not his own words. But I know why you keep bringing it up, because you're gonna lose, and you just can't stand it.

Say it with me: "PRESIDENT KERRY"

No not "RESIDENT EVIL"

"PRESIDENT KERRY"


You'll get used to it, just like we've all gotten used to saying "President dubya"

Donal said...

Ok so Hmm yeah Bush is smarter than Kerry after all he figured out how to avoid serving in Vietnam and how to ride his fathers name for most of his adult life. Oh and how to avoid actually thinking about things its just so much easier to follow idelogy than to think about things. The Kerry comments yeah he shot a guy carrying a loaded rpg that was aimed at the men in his swift boat. And if I were a Bush supporter I'd be more careful about flinging war crime charges around- after all hasnt Bush ignored and continues to ignore the Geneva Conventions.

ALa said...

Kat: You Rule! I know that I have urged you to become a Professor...and Big and Mean says that I will be someone's Karen Hughes...but seriously --you should work on a campaign...you'd be great!!!!
Is anyone else missing the fact that all Kerry's people are saying now that there were WMDs that Bush has lost!!!!!!!!!????? They just love to have it both ways!

JFM: Oh Riverboat Pilot...you make me laugh...enjoy your seven days of wishful thinking -actually I guess you can enjoy election night too since Snaggletooth says he will declare victory even if Bush wins in a landslide...even if Kerry wins -I am sure Hillary has already hired a sniper...LOL...

mr_nimbus said...

This really isn't a comment about the post, but a general comment about your blog.

First, some kudos': I like your style. You are funny, brash and obviously put a lot of thought into your posts. Well done.

That aside, I often wonder why people of such intellect and youth buy into the extremist political propaganda. Seriously, how can you look anyone in the eye and say that Bush has been a great leader? He has been a train wreck, and in my estimation, the absolute worst president in my lifetime. Don't bother with the deflect and cover techniques....ie "Well, Kerry would be worse...flip/flop, flip/flop". This is not about Kerry.

Take a step back and actually look at the man. Look what he has done to this country. Thousands of US citizens have been maimed or killed due to his inability to effectively act as a commander or interpret intelligence. We are not safer today - not by a longshot.

Since you are such a firm believer of Bush, my question to you is this: Are you prepared to put your money where your mouth is? Are you prepared to put on a uniform and fight for his beliefs? Because someone will have to, and quite frankly, I'd rather it be a member of Bush's fan club.

I know that there are plenty of people in Iraq right now who would love nothing more than to be back home. Are you prepared to make that sacrifice and step into their shoes?

If you are, I will not only respect your opinion, but I will support you every step of the way, over there and back. I will attach the great importance to every word you print or utter. Your voice will always carry weight for one simple reason - you paid for it.

If you choose not to take that step, then you are just another partisan freeloader whose words are as empty as your convictions.

ALa said...

Mr. Nimbus:
Thanks for stopping by and for your comments –we here on the right always welcome dissent…
First let me say that I would totally agree with your sentiments if I didn’t feel like I understood the full implications of the War on Islamofascism –and just viewed Iraq as a surface issue –or a distraction- as you seem to view it. (Let me also take a moment to say if you consider 33 ‘youth’ you were alive for the Carter Presidency and they haven’t created the term ‘Misery Index’ for Bush…). That being said…
There are polls out that enlisted men 4 to 1 support the President and Officers 3 to 1. What does that say? These are the men that are there –fighting and dying for what they think is the right war, at the right time in the right place…
Would I go to Iraq? Actually before I had children I seriously considered enlisting in the Air Force…but considering I was 5’1 ¼ and 102lbs…I was talked out of it…Would I be proud if my boys went…Yes (aside from the fact that they are 4 and 6). I heard the father of a soldier, that is over there, the other day say that he would rather his boy be killed [in Iraq] for ‘a reason’ rather than here (16,000 murders in the US this year) for nothing…
Do you understand that SERIOUSLY the only way to stop this is to change the face of the Middle East –they do not hate us because ‘we are free’ –they hate us because we are not Muslim and we breathe! Every time a soldier hands a child in Iraq a pair of shoes, a toy or school supplies they ARE changing hearts and minds…THIS will be their perception of Americans…finally something to counter what they have heard on Saddam TV or Al Jazerra. Do you see the ‘bigger picture’ that Iran is now surrounded….
I believe that we ARE safer…have we had an attack on US soil since 911? No. Have there been attempts? Yes!
So you see…I am not some Hitler Youth towing the party line…I am interested, well versed and involved. I know the failures of the history of appeasement…I know that Churchill was the victor –not Neville Chamberlain…I know that the isolationists (Limburgh) were wrong to ‘let Hitler be’ in ’38 and the destruction that came from that. Bush is not waiting until ’45…he is taking action (regardless of what France may think) to prevent what would be the inevitable.
Here’s a question for you…as you ask –would I go to Iraq and die for Bush… Would you be the first to volunteer your kids to die in a terror attack should Kerry (God forbid) win and continue in his dovish, UN bending, troop denigrating ways?

Donal said...

Ok, first off the WW2 analogy is way off. Do you know that Churchill firmly belived that the war could have been avoided if the leadership of England, France and th e U.S. had enforced the arms control established over Germany in WW1. In other words, Churchill would have favored the continuing the inspections and demanding more inspectors to do the work. You fail to see that there were more than two choices. There were other options besides more of the same and war. Also you said "Every time a soldier hands a child in Iraq a pair of shoes, a toy or school supplies they ARE changing hearts and minds" which makes no sense at all. What about the thousands and thousands of Iraqi civilians killed and maimed by American armed forces- do you honestly belive that those actions will make them love us? How would you feel about people who came to the US and did such things? One last thing you say that Kerry denigrats the troops- something he has never done. Earlier you said that Kerry is a war criminal I would point out that if he is so are all the men who served in Nam are as well as all the men and women currently serving in Iraq. That is not supporting the troops.

redleg said...

Mr Nimbus

I am an Officer in the Army and proud supporter of my commander in chief. I have served in Afghanistan and am on orders to deploy again. In fact I am waiting for a plane in the next few days. I have had to tell some of my soldiers they could not deploy and had to comfort them because they were disappointed that they could not do their part. Upset, grown men, to the point of tears because they could not go to a war they considered just and right. That's the kind of soldiers you have nowadays. Iraq and Afghanistan are two seperate theaters in the GWOT. Fighting terror there in the Stan is like fighting terror in Iraq, just a different locale. I can't stoumach the thought of fighting again for a man in charge of my country who doesn't have enough character to say what he means . I've done it before in the 90s and I don't wish to do it again. If we wish to undermine our good efforts in this world go ahead and do so, but don't tell me you are patriotic because of it. I respect your dissent but we are out there doing the job, a very messy job, to the very best of our abilities. You nation deserves your support. President Bush (not shrub, not Dubya but President) is key player in the GWOT. After decades of attacks we have finally done something. You may disagree but then you owe it to your country to get involved and help us out. Not just snipe around the edges and tell us you have a secret plan. Life ain't perfect and it never goes according to plan.

I have seen the people of Afghanistan and they are very grateful we came to be there. I have heard many similar stories about Iraq. How may were the Taliban, AQ or Saddam Husseins regime killing every day. Dig up any mass graves lately? My unit is loaded with combat veterans from both theaters. Don't see no Kerry-Edwards stickers around here much. SOoe purple heart licence plates but otherwise we are trying to make America safe. What have you done? What are you doing? Ask yourself. I do every day. This hindsight 20/20 thing is very bif for the left these days and just reflect how much about 50% of this nation just wants to fall comfortably back into 9/10 ways. We can't do that so we'll carry you along until you're ready. Don't worry, no charge.

Remember
SGT Cory Mracek KIA Jan 04 Iraq
PFC Jarod Dennis KIA Shkin Afghanistan April 2003

ALa said...

Obviously, I can not say it better than Redleg...someone who has been there and is going back (proudly). The only thing I can add is to say that I sponsor a woman in Afghanistan and one in Bosnia (through Women for Women International)...neither have ever talked about the civillian casulties (as it was the action of THEIR governments that caused them --not ours...it's sad they realize that and you don't) --they talk about the 'big hearts' and 'kind spirit' of the American people that 'would send their sons to save nobodys" (these are quotes btw). You have never lived in fear of having your hands cut off, your tongue cut out or covered in head to toe with no schooling under the threat of death. They have. Would I give up my life to ensure that would not be the fate of my children...absolutely!
Also, I am not denigrating the troops by invoking John Kerry's own words...unlike John Kerry I don't think that all soldiers committed war crimes. I am not talking about his bogus testimony --I am talking about when he admitted the things he personally did...like I said self-professed war criminal.

free0352 said...

Red leg


Hoo-uh!


and I'm a Marine

mr_nimbus said...

ALa71 said...

: First let me say that I would totally agree with
: your sentiments if I didn't feel like I understood
: the full implications of the War on Islamofascism
: –and just viewed Iraq as a surface issue –or a
: distraction- as you seem to view it.

Islamofascism is a cute simplification. Why do some Islamic countries hate the US while others consider us allies?

Pakistan, which in my opinion, is far more dangerous to the US than Iraq, gets our stamp of approval - why? This is the country that not only berthed and backed the Taliban, they also exported the knowledge to create nuclear weapons to other Islamic countries like Iran.

Saudi Arabia - allies: They supplied the manpower for 9/11 and the Islamic interpretation (Wahabhi) that encourages jihad, martyrdom and terrorism.

It's not as simple as it seems. There is also a long history of repressive and corrupt governments that were propped up by us - including Saddam Hussein. Also, many arabs hate the fact that we side with the Israeli's. Why do you think that many Palestinians were celebrating the 9/11 disaster? Because they are Islamofascists?

Come on, you are smarter than that.

: There are polls out that enlisted men 4 to 1
: support the President and Officers 3 to 1. What does
: that say? ...

That only proves that the military personnel who are involved in any conflict believe in what they are doing. Being a veteran, I understand that, and felt the same way when I was in. The guys in Vietnam also believed in what they were doing, and performed admirably. What they were unaware of was that they were getting the screwing of a lifetime from politicians and bureaucrats.

I don't want to see that happen to our troops today.

: Would I go to Iraq? Actually before I had children
: I seriously considered enlisting in the Air
: Force…but considering I was 5'1 ¼ and 102lbs…I was
: talked out of it

Shoulda, woulda, coulda... didn't.

That is my point. I am not asking about then, I am asking about now. You would not go, you are raising children - right ? Well, right now there are plenty of mothers and fathers with 4 and 6 year olds who never dreamed that they would have been pulled away to serve. Put yourself in their shoes before you give the green light for combat and cheer from the sidelines.

: Do you understand that SERIOUSLY the only way to
: stop this is to change the face of the Middle
: East –they do not hate us because 'we are free'
: –they hate us because we are not Muslim and we
: breathe!

No, they hate us for a multitude of reasons - the least of which is breathing. If you were completely honest, and stripped away the propaganda you will find that some of these people have a legitimate gripe. OBLIGATORY DISCLAIMER: It does not justify terrorism on their behalf.

: Every time a soldier hands a child in Iraq a pair of
: shoes, a toy or school supplies they ARE
: changing hearts and minds…

The US military is great when it comes to changing hearts and minds on the ground. Unfortunately, those hearts and minds can be very fickle. It only takes a stupid move by our government to destroy all good will gained on the ground.

: Do you see the 'bigger picture' that Iran is now
: surrounded….

I love this line of reasoning:

We have the worlds most advanced nuclear weapons program, we could destroy the world many times over. So tell me, who has not been completely surrounded by the US since the 50's?

Nothing has changed for Iran. They were just as "surrounded" when we were financing Hussein's war against them.

Now are you ready for a sick joke?
The majority of Iraq consists of Shia Muslims - just like Iran. What happens if, after the elections, a pro Iranian government takes over. What if bastards like Muqtada al-Sadr are appointed to positions of power? Then what?


: I believe that we ARE safer…have we had an attack
: on US soil since 911? No. Have there been
: attempts? Yes!

Don't kid yourself - we are not safer. We have exhausted our military overseas and have not done enough back home. I fear that we are going to see yet another tragedy, regardless of who is in the Oval Office.

I hope you prove me wrong on that.

: I know the failures of the history of
: appeasement... I know that Churchill was the victor
: –not Neville Chamberlain

Well, Iraq is no Nazi Germany.

For the record, I am not for appeasement - never was, never will be. There is a war going on. We cleaned out the Taliban. Iraq should not have been on the short list.

: Here's a question for you…as you ask –would I go to
: Iraq and die for Bush… Would you be the
: first to volunteer your kids to die in a terror
: attack should Kerry (God forbid) win and continue
: his dovish, UN bending, troop denigrating ways?

This assumes that I would vote for Kerry, which I would not. I am probably voting libertarian this year. I don't like Kerry at all - I just happen to think that George W. Bush should be fired for his record of failures, both at home and abroad.

Second - who volunteers to die in a terrorist attack? Come up with a better analogy and I will happily answer it.

free0352 said...

This nit-wit said

My favorite "Bushism" does not involve grammar, but lies: "Major combat operations in Iraq have ended..." May 1st, 2003.

And that stuff you quote about Kerry is well known and has been rehashed on this very site over and over and over again. In his testimony before congress he was reporting the findings of the Winter Soldier investigation, not his own words. But I know why you keep bringing it up, because you're gonna lose, and you just can't stand it.

Say it with me: "PRESIDENT KERRY"

No not "RESIDENT EVIL"

"PRESIDENT KERRY"


You'll get used to it, just like we've all gotten used to saying "President dubya"



Free screams in his deaf ear!
YO...moron. We've said it 10000000000000000000 times. I'll say it nice and slow, because you clearly need help, along with your reality challenged party.

In the military, major combat operations can only be conducted against a standing organised army suported by a soverign nation. Counter-insurgency/three block war operations which are being conducted now are not major combat. Never, ever. Even if the insurgency does more damage and kills more people. Its not major combat, because it isn't "combat." The boots on the ground in the GWOT are fighting (wrap your dim mind around this) -CRIMINALS- Not combatants. They are not even recognised as soldiers, because they are not. We are not even "At war" We are not fighting the governmnet of Iraq anymore, when we quit doing that, -MAJOR COMBAT OPERATIONS WERE OVER IDIOT!- Now were are helping Iraq fight the criminals terrorising thier country. You do not support this because you hate Bush. You have let your politics blind you from doing the right thing. This makes you shallow and morally challanged at a minimum. Check your self freek.

Donal said...

"I am talking about when he admitted the things he personally did...like I said self-professed war criminal. " I take it your refering to the claims in the propaganda fil Stolen Honor- the the brief segment in which producer and narrator Carlton Sherwood, with a straight face and without a shred of evidence, calls John Kerry a war criminal. And not in some symbolic, metaphorical way; he accuses him of decapitating, testicle-eletrocuting, and rape. And as much as you and he may like to pretend that war crimes didnt happen in Nam- they did. And not because the soldiers were evil its because they were losing men everyday and they were encouraged even ordered to do so with the use of free fire zones.

ALa said...

Noooooo, I am referring to Kerry's own words from his own mouth on Meet the Press...and from an interview with MR. CROSBY NOYES on April 18, 1971:

"KERRY: There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are war criminals."

MTP:
"SEN. KERRY: Oh, of course, not. And not only that, we, the government of our country, ran an assassination program. I mean, Bill Colby has acknowledged it. We had the Phoenix Program, where they actually went into villages to eliminate the civilian infrastructure of the Vietcong. Now, you couldn't tell the difference in many cases who they were. And countless veterans testified 30 years ago to that reality. And I think-look, there's no excusing shooting children in cold blood, or women, and killing them in cold blood. There isn't, under any circumstances. But we're not asking, you know, nor is Bob Kerrey saying, "Excuse us for what we did." We're asking people to try to understand the context and forgiveness. And I think the nation needs to understand what the nation put its young in a position to do, and move on and take those lessons and apply them to the future."

mr_nimbus said...

redleg said...

: I am an Officer in the Army and proud supporter of
: I have served in Afghanistan and am on orders to
: deploy again.

Best of luck to you. Stay safe. I mean that sincerely.

: Iraq and Afghanistan are two seperate theaters in
: the GWOT.

I agree 100% with Afghanistan. I maintain that Iraq was not the problem.

: I can't stoumach the thought of fighting again for a
: man in charge of my country who doesn't have enough
: character to say what he means.

I can't stomach seeing soldiers maimed and killed because Mr. Character was dead wrong and too stubborn or stupid to see it.

: If we wish to undermine our good efforts in this
: world go ahead and do so, but don't tell me you are
: patriotic because of

I will assume that you meant to type "If you wish" instead of "If we wish".

I don't understand how I am undermining any good effort. I support everyone on the ground. It's the politicians that I have a problem with.

I don't recall using the word patriot. In fact, I think Mark Twain has the best definition of patriotism that I ever read: Patriot - the person who can holler the loudest without knowing what he is hollering about.

: I respect your dissent but we are out there doing
: the job, a very messy job, to the very best of our
: abilities. You nation deserves your support.

First, I applaud everyone in the military, they have gone above and beyond in making the best of a political mess. I just wish that you weren't put into the position to do it.

I, in turn, respect your opinion, as well as having the courage to back up your convictions. People like you are the exceptions to the rule in the Conservative world.

Second, my nation has my support. Always had and always will. My nation is not an ideology, nor is it a policy, nor does it change with the political winds of those who occupy the white house.

My nation does not need to function in blind obedience. The founding fathers saw to that.

: After decades of attacks we have finally done
: something. You may disagree but then you owe it to
: your country to get involved and help us out.

Been there, done that, was involved, got the T-shirt, got the medal, got the ribbons, joined the VFW...etc.

In fact, I have very vivid recollections of our first brush with failed mid-east policy and the resulting damage. You could even say that I was on the ground floor in the war against terrorism .

: I have seen the people of Afghanistan and they are
: very grateful we came to be there.

I am sure of that - you guys did a great job. The administration almost completely screwed that up, but, the military bailed them out.

: Dig up any mass graves lately?

Is that why we went into Iraq?

: What have you done? What are you doing? Ask
: yourself. I do every day.

Done: I served, active duty gator Navy from 1981 until 1985. Member of the Multinational Peacekeeping Force, Beirut, Lebanon (1982 - 1983). Cold war warrior...etc. All of this is different from your experience, but in the early 1980's, that was all they were serving for supper.

Doing: Ensuring that politicians and civilians who clamor for war are held responsible for their actions. Supporting the US military in their role. Written and submitted articles for publication defending our troops - actually published one. My motto: Separate the soldier from the politician.

If I can keep just one kid from dying because of political stupidity, then I am still serving.

: This hindsight 20/20 thing is very bif for the left
: these days and just reflect how much about 50% of
: this nation just wants to fall comfortably back into
: 9/10 ways.

I am not sure if that was meant as an insult, but since I am not on the left, it will roll right off my back.

I, for one, do not want to revert to a pre 9/11 mindset. I just want someone to come up with a better solution then invading Iraq which had no bearing in the GWOT.

: We can't do that so we'll carry you along until
: you're ready. Don't worry, no charge.

Since I carried you and your generation during my time in service to my country, I suppose that makes us even.

Donal said...

So what you are saying is that all the men who served in Vietnam are war criminals. Or just the ones you dont like? Once you start that you have to apply it to all the men and women who serve in the military. Unless you somewho belive we've created magic bullets and bombs that dont kill the innocent. I also dont hear you calling for war crimes trials against the political and military leadership of that time who ordered those measures taken. Mu uncle served in Vietnam and my mother lost a dear friend I resent the hell out of you calling them war criminals.

redleg said...

Donal

I resent the hell out of Kerry calling all Vietnam War veterans criminals. You should too. Thanks for making the point.

Mr Nimbus

I respect you service as well, but we may have to agree to disagree on Iraq. I think it was absolutely necessary and needed. Agents of terror and the nations that sponsor them have been placed on notice for the first time in a very long time. The mess that is the real world defies simple solutions and war is ever messy. The Stan was not and is not a mess. Free elections carried out for the first time in many years with little to no bloodshed. Iraq is far better off now than it was under Saddam Hussein and will now will not ever be a threat to us or its neighbors ever again. The UN's credibility was salvaged by the US intervention, despite the UN's best efforts to the contrary. The people of Iraq are happy that we are there and things are getting better, not worse. I would like you to remember that it was the US Army that rebuilt France, Europe and Germany and Japan after World War II. And Korea after the great live fire of 1950-3. We will do so in Iraq and Afghanistan as well. I've worked for the government for many years and I know a few things-- it isn't capable of secret conspiracies. It is beauracracy and it is inefficient despite the best wishes of man or beast. In fact it is usually our worst enemy. But the politicians, at least in the executive branch, have been steadfast and resolute and tried to deliver on everything they have promised. I wish I could say the same for the members of the house and senate. I have heard your refrain over and over, support the soldiers but not the war. It is unrelenting and bullshit to the extreme. You cannot support the soldier if you cannot endorse why he is fighting. Question authority, I agree, but you are failing us by not placing at least a moderate amount of trust in your elected officials and the government and instead basing your flawed assumptions on what the media is telling you. You hear on the media that we have failed in both theaters and what I am telling you is that what you hear is wrong, dead wrong.

The Afghanistan I go back to is one heck of a lot better than the one I left 13 months ago. Bad guys are still there. We'll take care of them. The people of Afghanistan remember who their friends are. I took a wrong turn into a valley while riding with a Romanian convoy in April of 2003 and ran smack into a small village that didn't have a radio or a vehicle of any type. A wrong turn in a convoy full of Soviet stle BTR-70s and Romanian soldiers with Warsaw Pact style weapons. The village elder ran out and forced us to have tea with him so he could tell us how important it was for us to be there. He gave us a meagar fare that was better than a feast for them. He was so happy we were there and the Taliban was not. "Don't forget us" was his message to us, literally. The Iraqi people deserve no less from us. And they are getting the greatness of America in every patrol we do, and election we safeguard.

You can debate the rightness and wrongness of the invasion of Iraq all you want. I will remember it as...finally. Stop pussy-footing around and get rid of that two bit dictator. We all knew in 1991 that we would be back. It's the right theater in the right place at the right time. And hell yes, Iran is nervous. They see that they have a chance of being next. No wonder the mullahs want you to vote for Kerry.

And you are old gator-navy. I went aboard LHA-4 at Norfolk back in 2002 during Marine Corps Command and Staff College. My buddy was going to be the commo officer for their next float (Iraq!). I came away from that with the firm knowledge that after a week aboard I would either 1) be thrown into a storage locker duct taped head to toe and raving like a lunatic or 2) or perfectly all right with it. I think it would be number 1, so hat's off to you. That's why I joined the Army and not the Marines. I hate boats.

ALa said...

Donal:....are you reading? I DON'T believe that the vets did all these things...It's KERRY that says they did. HE said that all the troops in Vietnam were war criminals --why do you think the vets hate him so much. He admitted to burning down villages...
He met with the N. Vietnamese and claimed "We can't spread Democracy all over the world..."
He prolonged the stay of POWs who were made to listen to his testimony (even the Dems beloved McCain said that a long time ago)...
He lobbied for his own awards (which just weren’t done) so he could get the hell out of there --Ollie North wouldn't accept the five Purple Hearts that he was awarded JUST so he wouldn't have to leave his men.

Just as Senator Kerry denigrated the troops all those years ago --he continues that tradition today as he blames them for missing weapons that were already gone when he arrived...

Donal said...

Yes, I am readiing you are saying that Kerry lied about what happened in Vietnam but you are saying he commited war crimes- your trying to have it both ways. I hardly belive that one navy lt. was responsible for prolonging a war that he was trying to stop. He's not blaming the troops for the missing weapons he's rightly blaming the political leadership. You are aware that the civilians control the military in this country right?

ALa said...

Most vets didn't destroy the villages of innocent people --some did...John Kerry was one of them.

President Bush is not on the ground...if troops were at that facility and John Kerry says that it was a failure to secure the weapons...that means the troops were not competent. (Not what I tihnk of course -what Kerry thinks) BUT, hey, you guys all said there were no weapons before the war anyway --so I'm sure they never even existed...Saddam was a great guy...

mr_nimbus said...

redleg:

Agreed - we disagree on Iraq.

Make no mistake, I am fully behind what we did in Afghanistan.

We will also have to agree to disagree about supporting soldiers, but not the war. My reasons are very different than some fuzzy headed college student who does it because it is the cause du jour. I saw firsthand what happens when politicians go off half-cocked and put the military into a dangerous situation without even comprehending the nature of the conflict, let alone the nature of the people they are supposed to be helping.

During the 90's I worked for a well known government contractor - I know what kind of information we are capable of generating. Based on Powell's speech and the administration's intelligence reports, I was completely on board. I thought that if Hussein had WMD's and plans to use them on us, well, it's time to clean house. Once it got underway, I found myself, like many vets, telling people to pipe down and wait before passing judgement. I waited myself. When the WMD's failed to materialize, I was pissed. Like I said, I know what we are capable of generating. This is not the media speaking, this is completely drawn from personal experience.

Thus, I will not support an administration that lies, or allows major intelligence snafu's like that to occur. I will however support the servicemen who are tasked with redefining and succeeding with the mission. They are not mutually exclusive.

Yes - gator navy. LPH class which was more primitive than the Nassau (LHA 4).

Again, good luck. Be safe.

Subsunk said...

Mr. Nimbus/Donal,

A closed mind is a terrible waste. Neither of you is listening to the facts in this argument. I can only rant on a few. Prepare yourselves because I don’t have the time or inclination to be kind.

"KERRY: There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are war criminals."

ALa and Redleg have pointed out that ex-LT Kerry said he had indeed conducted war crimes by participating in free fire zones, harassment and interdiction fire (which are not war crimes -- they continue to exist today and are called weapons free areas or locations and mean IF an enemy is identified in the area you don't have to call home base to ask permission to kill him), using .50 cal machine guns against personnel targets (again, not a war crime or illegal), and search and destroy missions (which are not illegal or a war crime – any enemy contraband or support equipment and supplies is fair to be destroyed in wartime, including enemy housing. Of course what you saw on TV was the Army burning villages to relocate the inhabitants and build them better quarters in a safer location, which they appreciated and did not protest). Just because LT Kerry thought his superiors who ordered these acts were criminals, doesn’t mean he had the legal background to make such distinction, he didn’t follow the chain of command to report them, and he isn’t qualified to judge. He lied and undermined the mission of his command and his peers.

“Donal said...

Strange so according to you the fact that Bush failed, in the war he started, to safeguard 380 tons of high grade explosives is a Democratic plot? Intresting so the senior official at Iraq's Ministry of Science and Technology is a secret Democratic operative. As for calling them WMDs what else can you call 380 tons of explosives which just half a pound of HMX brought down Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland, in 1988. Also I'd like to point out that these explosivies were not in the hands of terroists before the war but they are now. Combine that with the fact that 90% of the containers coming into the US are not inspected. That scares the hell out of me. And all this happened on the watch of the man who claims to be making America safer.”

100% of the cargo containers are screened before entry (overseas when they are loaded – guess you missed that news item), only 5% are actually inspected, and most of them are inspected by Xrays. Inspection of 100% of the cargo entering the US would require billions of dollars more than the war in Iraq is costing (at least $10B a month), and would add a minimum of 2 weeks to the entry of any cargo into the US, effectively eliminating 90% of the commerce from Latin America, Europe, and Asia. See how much of this security we could afford after we reach a 20% unemployment rate due to the loss of commerce in America.

380 tons of explosives is hardly WMD. If only one pound of HMX brought down PanAm 103, then I guess we better classify all cigarette lighters, gasoline, hairspray, deodorant cans and any explosive or chemical compound with explosive or flammable characteristics a WMD. This position is so ludicrous I wonder you have even thought it through.

“Explosives ….Not in the hands of terrorists before the war but they are now…” What have they been using? Harsh language?????

“Donal said...

Yes, I am reading you are saying that Kerry lied about what happened in Vietnam but you are saying he committed war crimes- your trying to have it both ways. I hardly believe that one navy lt. was responsible for prolonging a war that he was trying to stop. He's not blaming the troops for the missing weapons he's rightly blaming the political leadership. You are aware that the civilians control the military in this country right?”

Well, Donal, since you aren’t a General or the Secretary of Defense or State, how the hell would you know what extended a war and what was counterproductive to its completion on successful terms for the US and our POWs? If there is a plan underway to get our POWs home and end the war without abandoning the South Vietnamese to the cruel fate they ultimately suffered (and there was in 1971), then even as a lowly Navy LT, I knew to keep my trap shut and not go contacting the enemy and espousing the enemies’ plan as my own. It hindered our success, -- the very definition of aid and comfort to the enemy. One Navy LT or even 300 ex enlisted men do not have the right to work against the public diplomacy and policy of the United States. That fits the definition of treason. Reread the UCMJ.

“Donal said...

Ok so Hmm yeah Bush is smarter than Kerry after all he figured out how to avoid serving in Vietnam and how to ride his fathers name for most of his adult life. Oh and how to avoid actually thinking about things its just so much easier to follow idelogy than to think about things. The Kerry comments yeah he shot a guy carrying a loaded rpg that was aimed at the men in his swift boat. And if I were a Bush supporter I'd be more careful about flinging war crime charges around- after all hasnt Bush ignored and continues to ignore the Geneva Conventions.”

No we haven’t ignored the Geneva Conventions. I am sure you are proud that you propose treating our enemies better than our servicemen are treated while in the service. These despicable people are not legal combatants. They don’t wear uniforms. They use women and children, religious places, and residential areas as shields. That means they forfeit all combatant protections under the Geneva Conventions. I am sure they will love us so much better when they have free cable and couches to lie on while they write hate letters for their Muslim brothers to use to stir up trouble. But sitting on the floor for over 4 hours and sleep deprivation through temperature control and noise makers isn’t torture to me. And if it is to you, then why don’t you take their place and give them a free ride. They killed Americans without regret and would slit your throat given 30 seconds and half a chance. I vote you volunteer to die, because I refuse to let them kill my family or anyone else in my country. And that is called patriotism.

Donal: “Islamofascism is a cute simplification. Why do some Islamic countries hate the US while others consider us allies?”

Now who is being stupid and obtuse? They overwhelmingly hate us, you idiot. How do you plan to change this? By letting them continue to keep espousing jihad and hatred of America. Or by doing something about it. At least by establishing a friendly regime in the Middle East with people who are truly grateful to us for getting rid of their most evil oppressor, we stand a chance of changing hearts and minds. Failure to do this means another 25 years of even worse hatred and killing.

As someone on this blog said, Winston Churchill believed in preemptive action to limit the arms race in 1935-36 to prevent the Nazi regime from achieving the tools to do what they did. He recognized the danger early. We have had the evidence in front of us for 25 yrs that Islam wants us dead. We had evidence for 12 years that Saddam wanted nuclear weapons to use against his enemies. I think that qualifies us as too patient. Once the Nazis began aggressive conflict, it was too late to stop them without world war. Only a fool would discount the possibility that this is 1936 and we stopped World War 4 from happening through the invasion of Iraq. (You heard me – a fool)

Donal:“Ok, first off the WW2 analogy is way off. Do you know that Churchill firmly belived that the war could have been avoided if the leadership of England, France and th e U.S. had enforced the arms control established over Germany in WW1. In other words, Churchill would have favored the continuing the inspections and demanding more inspectors to do the work. You fail to see that there were more than two choices. There were other options besides more of the same and war. Also you said "Every time a soldier hands a child in Iraq a pair of shoes, a toy or school supplies they ARE changing hearts and minds" which makes no sense at all. What about the thousands and thousands of Iraqi civilians killed and maimed by American armed forces- do you honestly belive that those actions will make them love us? How would you feel about people who came to the US and did such things? One last thing you say that Kerry denigrats the troops- something he has never done. Earlier you said that Kerry is a war criminal I would point out that if he is so are all the men who served in Nam are as well as all the men and women currently serving in Iraq. That is not supporting the troops.”

The World War 2 analogy is EXACTLY appropriate. Who uses government propaganda to keep their people whipped into a frenzy of hatred against outsiders? Nazi and Muslim governments. Who hates the Jews more than anything else? Nazis and Muslims. Who exterminates and oppresses those who won’t conform to their religion/policies? Nazis and Muslims. Failure to learn the lessons of the past dooms you and those who think like you to repeat the mistakes of the past. I am not willing to lose 25 million American lives because you think we are being rash. And you are a fool if you don’t think that is the way things were headed before 9/11. (You heard me – a fool)

“Mr Nimbus….

Since you are such a firm believer of Bush, my question to you is this: Are you prepared to put your money where your mouth is? Are you prepared to put on a uniform and fight for his beliefs? Because someone will have to, and quite frankly, I'd rather it be a member of Bush's fan club.
I know that there are plenty of people in Iraq right now who would love nothing more than to be back home. Are you prepared to make that sacrifice and step into their shoes? If you are, I will not only respect your opinion, but I will support you every step of the way, over there and back. I will attach the great importance to every word you print or utter. Your voice will always carry weight for one simple reason - you paid for it.
If you choose not to take that step, then you are just another partisan freeloader whose words are as empty as your convictions.”

You got a lot of balls to talk that way. I have served. A full career. I am prepared to go any time any day that I can. I asked the Navy to take me back after 9/11, but I cannot go because my specialty is not needed. Our personnel overseas are doing their job because they know it needs to be done. Shirking that duty doesn’t make it go away. It doesn’t eliminate the threat because we ignore it. Of course they want to be home. But they know that the only way to be safe at home is eliminate this threat and then come home. Your plan will ensure that death will be visited on us here, at home, in large numbers. That will require us to kill a huge number of Muslims. Most will be innocent of crime against America. But they will have to die if we do not nip this in the bud. If this becomes a holy war, then they must all die horribly, because I am NOT willing to be exterminated instead of them. And you are a fool if you don’t think that is the way things are headed after 9/11 without the struggle we are engaged in now. (You heard me – a fool – I don’t care if you are a vet. You must not have learned anything about defending your country in the Navy)

“No, they hate us for a multitude of reasons - the least of which is breathing. If you were completely honest, and stripped away the propaganda you will find that some of these people have a legitimate gripe. OBLIGATORY DISCLAIMER: It does not justify terrorism on their behalf.”

Why do you feel the need to provide an obligatory disclaimer decrying their action? I don’t care if you agree they were wrong. They WERE WRONG and that’s all there is to it. There is no legitimate gripe for killing us just because we help Israel defend itself. That’s false logic. Killing anyone who doesn’t truly deserve it is a tragedy. And that goes for us killing innocent Iraqis either on purpose or by mistake. It’s a tragedy. But so is our extinction. I vote you die first, because I want my kids to have a happier life. And I want the Iraqis to have a happier life (and any other Muslims who want one). But if they don’t change their ways, and get off this “evil America” bent, they are going to die. And I want to prevent that by eliminating their evil ones now, before nuclear retaliation becomes necessary. Think a little further than 5 years back and 5 years ahead.

Donal: ”We will also have to agree to disagree about supporting soldiers, but not the war. My reasons are very different than some fuzzy headed college student who does it because it is the cause du jour. I saw firsthand what happens when politicians go off half-cocked and put the military into a dangerous situation without even comprehending the nature of the conflict, let alone the nature of the people they are supposed to be helping.
During the 90's I worked for a well known government contractor - I know what kind of information we are capable of generating. Based on Powell's speech and the administration's intelligence reports, I was completely on board. I thought that if Hussein had WMD's and plans to use them on us, well, it's time to clean house. Once it got underway, I found myself, like many vets, telling people to pipe down and wait before passing judgement. I waited myself. When the WMD's failed to materialize, I was pissed. Like I said, I know what we are capable of generating. This is not the media speaking, this is completely drawn from personal experience.
Thus, I will not support an administration that lies, or allows major intelligence snafu's like that to occur. I will however support the servicemen who are tasked with redefining and succeeding with the mission. They are not mutually exclusive.”

I worked for DoD in the Pentagon in the 90s. I read the intel. I know what Iraq was said to have. I also know how the sources were characterized. If you ever worked for a CIA/DIA contractor then you know they made plenty of mistakes because they didn’t have enough assets and human intel to prove anything 100%. Even in the reports on friendly countries. Quit pretending you are offended by government servants making mistakes, passing this on to politicians, and then blaming politicians when they are wrong. If you were taught that 3+3 was 9 , you would tell the world it was 9.

Support for a wartime mission and the servicemen executing it requires that you keep your mouth shut about the correctness of the mission’s premise. I don’t see you doing that with this post. You may disagree with the administration’s policies. Fine. Write letters to your Congressmen. Write letters to your President. But shut up in front of our enemies and those who are not our allies. Encouraging our defeat through a campaign of undermining the mission after it has been ordered is disloyal and counterproductive to shortening the conflict and limiting our losses. Giving hope to our enemies leads them to fight on. And THAT is what John Kerry is all about. Self inflation at the cost of the lives and morale of the men he wishes to lead. He disgusts me. I wouldn’t follow him to the bathroom.

Bush ain’t perfect. But I’ll take action over talk and complacency any day. At least he is doing something to change Muslim hatred. If they never love us, that’s OK. They MUST respect us. No one else has even mentioned a plan to do otherwise.

Sorry to be so incendiary, but I’ve had it with those positions.

Subsunk

redleg said...

I agree with subsunk, except in that he gave credit to Donal for a cogent response when it was actually Mr. Nimbus. But it doesn't change the intent, Donal has swallowed the left's line and is simply parroting it back. He might make an intelligent human someday when he learns to think on his own.


Both Nimbus and Donal deeply distrust the government. In so doing they deeply undermine everything we do believing the system is grossly corrupt, incompetant or worse an all-knowing conspiracy machine. It is none of those things though incompetance does happen. So does ignorance and idiocy. Mistakes are made. Pearl Harbor, the June 1950 invasion of Korea, the Chinese intervention in Korea, the German Ardennes Offensive...all big intelligence mistakes. They happen in war. Stripping the modicum of trust away from your government at a time of war removes the possibility that any good could have come from it. The intentions were stated clearly. The UN resolutions were defied, the 1991 cease fire was defied on numerous occasions. When was the time right? Mr Nimbus cannot ascribe anything good coming from the government so it is all bad. That undermines the soldiers fighting. You know it. It does. Kerry does that as well. Seperating the war from the soldiers is a cheap cop out. And intellectually dishonest. Please don't tell me you support what I am doing but hate the government that sent me there to do it. You cannot have it both ways. You are being dishonest with me and with yourself. Mr. Nimbus you are articulate but deeply conflicted on this issue. If you, for one moment, truly believed that Iraq was all about WMDs you have misunderstood the fabric of this war and the fight in Iraq. I can't help you understand that. But I will tell you few are crying over Saddam Hussein's removal. It is a good thing that he is gone and after invading we must succeed in Iraq. Tear yourself away from the reasons we went to war now and look at what your military, your government is accomplishing. Two free governments in the East growing up under your eyes. That is an accomplishment, even if you cannot ascribe any good to your government at all. Support us in that and then you can say you are supporting your military.

Donal said...

I didnt say the following "Islamofascism is a cute simplification." and "we will also have to agree to disagree about supporting soldiers, but not the war"

First, Kerry accused the leadership of being war criminals. How can you defend the use of free fire zones as used in Vietnam. It consisted of if you see anything shoot it- it didnt matter if they werent the enemy. "He lied and undermined the mission of his command and his peers." He didnt lie he told the truth and thats what you have a problem with.

Cargo containers- no I'm not saying we should search 100% of the containers. But we should be searching containers from countries that are likely to be used as ports of origin. Maybe you belive that we should leave American security in the hands of corrupt officials in countries that hate us. But I'm not.

The explosives- I never said they were WMDs so I dont have to defend that statement. I think high grade milirary explosives are more dangerous than gasoline or hair spray. " What have they been using? Harsh language?????" No but just because they have weapons doesnt mean we should make it easy for them to get more.

No, I'm not a general or head of anything but neither are you. Neither are the men behind Stolen Honor, which is where you got that claim. As for the treason claim- agreeing to testify in front of Congress is not treason. I did look at the UCMJ and I read the part you apparently didnt bother with. The part that defined who the UCMJ applies to. Apparently your not aware that when they ARE NO LONGER in the military it doesnt apply to them.

First you say that we havent ignored the GC then you say its ok if we did. We may have to come up with a new code for dealing with these terrorist scum but to just ignore it and have nothing to replace it with is a receipe for disaster. The things you mentioned are not torture but the things that happened at Abu Gahrib was.

Iraq was not the Germany of 35-36 it was the Germany of 30-31. Churchill was and remained a firm beliver that if the inspections limiting Germany's build up of military force and remained in place the war could have been avoided entirely. We needed to ensure that the inspections were continued and enforced. It has become increasinhly clear that of all the threats oit there Iraq was not the top of the list. Look at Iran, we have no control over them at all and they will have nukes soon- much sooner than Iraq was.

Yes these governments are a danger. But Iraq was not the worst of them- I remain worried about these countries. We need to priortize the threats- this adminstration has bungled and continues to do so.


"Support for a wartime mission and the servicemen executing it requires that you keep your mouth shut about the correctness of the mission’s premise." No, I dont think it does. We are coming up on the re-election of the man that lead us into it. If we cant talk about why and how we got here- how can we prevent making mistakes in the future. Its that very freedom to critize the government that makes America great. You belive that Kerry is encouraging defeat- I'm voting for Kerry because I belive he will do a better job of leading us to victory.

Subsunk said "Bush ain’t perfect. But I’ll take action over talk and complacency any day. At least he is doing something to change Muslim hatred" No he's not aside from military action in Afghanstan and Iraq what has he done? The best way to change Muslim hatred is through education. We spend no more after 9/11 on this crucial aspect than we did before. We need to do things like offer to pay for schools in countries like Pakistan. The schools they have now are funded by rich Saudis and teach only the twisted version of Islam that is the basis of the support terrorists receive.

mr_nimbus said...

redleg:

First, I have really enjoyed this discourse. You have give me a few things to chew on. Thanks.

I do mistrust this current administration, they have given me no other alternative but to do so. When people like Wolfowicz and Rumsfeld define military objectives based on theoretical models, that's a problem. When they override common sense from the Pentagon pertaining to numbers of troops required, that's a problem. If you took what they did and applied it to the corporate world, the result would have resembled a Dilbert cartoon: An appointed executive with little "in the trenches" technical knowledge forcing a team of senior engineers to accept his preposterous technical solution.

That is incompetence.

I may be annoying in my beliefs, I may say things that tick you off, but trust me, my word is my word. This is not intellectually dishonest nor is it a cheap cop out. That is what I learned in the military: Uncle Sam owns me and my personal feelings come second. I could still disagree and still perform my duty.

If I was under your command and we were in the Iraqi theater of operations, would you tell me that I was not supporting my unit if I disagreed with the reasons for behind this war?

If I fought like a lion, side by side with you, but disagreed with the Bush doctrine, would you still tell me I didn't support the troops?

I say this, because, if I was in the military again, and I was in your unit, and if we were in Iraq - I would still feel the way I feel. And here is where you need to take my word for it, as a veteran, when I tell you that I would still perform my duty regardless. That I would do whatever it takes to keep my buddies alive, that you could completely count on me to not leave anyone behind, or leave anyone exposed. If I had to crawl through hell to protect a comrade - I would do so.

That is the brotherhood of the military, and although I am now a civilian, I still take it seriously.

You guys have accomplished much. I recognize that. You, the ones who have sacrificed, have my support

mr_nimbus said...

subsunk:

First - try to attribute the correct quotes to the correct source. Failing to do so does not help your case when throwing around words like fool, idiot, stupid and obtuse.

One of the reasons that they hate us is that we have been propping up "friendly" regimes for years. Look at all of our friends in the region already - not long ago Saddam was our friend too. Some of these friends even helped level the WTC.

If you actually think that militants are going to heel because we have created a democracy in Iraq, I think that you're in for a rude awakening. You cannot change the hearts and minds of committed terrorists. Why do you think that they are streaming in over the Iraqi borders? To get in on the ground floor of democracy?

I also pointed out the fallacy of comparing Nazi Germany and Iraq. Honestly, you must realize that you don't have a leg to stand on with that comparison. Iraq was falling apart at the seams - Nazi Germany was an industrial and military powerhouse. This was not 1936 - not by a long shot. Germany in 1919 would probably be a better comparison.

: We have had the evidence in front of us for 25 yrs
: that Islam wants us dead.

Who is Islam? Is he related to Godzilla? Why is he so pissed?

If you mean people of the Islamic faith, some of them certainly do want us dead. Many do not. Islam is a not the reason, but an excuse and a tool for small segment of thugs and murderers who have perverted it. Just as Christianity has been perverted by the KKK and Neo-Nazi's.

: You got a lot of balls to talk that way. I have
: served. A full career. I am prepared to go any time
: any day that I can. I asked the Navy to take me
: back after 9/11, but I cannot go because my
: specialty is not needed.

First off, I was speaking to all non-vets - the other 83% of our population. In particular, the cheerleaders and pep squad who shout for action and expect other people to do it for them.

Second - Give me a break. Your specialty is not needed? Cross train. Go Army, go Marines - they will teach you a new specialty. If you have leadership ability, I am sure that they would jump on it. So what if you lose rank - it's all about supporting your President and defending your country - right?

Look - If you did your time, be proud, rest on your laurels - you deserved it. Just don't give me that woulda, coulda garbage, it is incredibly insincere and suspect.

: Your plan will ensure that death will be visited on
: us here, at home, in large numbers. That will
: require us to kill a huge number of Muslims. Most
: will be innocent of crime against America.

OK - now I am confused - I thought you said that they ALL wanted to kill us. Please keep to your side of the debate, you're making me dizzy.

Also - what plan are you referring to? I don't remember putting forth a plan.

: You heard me – a fool – I don't care if you are a
: vet. You must not have learned anything about
: defending your country in the Navy

Veteran status does not absolve one of foolishness or imbecility - something, I am sure, you are all too painfully aware of. Obviously, you and I have defended 2 different country's - and the country that you have defended has some pretty funny ideas about democracy and individual rights.

: Why do you feel the need to provide an obligatory
: disclaimer decrying their action?

I have found that simply justifying Arab anger is reason enough for reactionaries to scream "YOU SUPPORT TERRORISM". The obligatory disclaimer is my way of nipping that moronic concept in the bud.

It is also a very sad commentary on the current mental state of a portion of our population.

: There is no legitimate gripe for killing us just
: because we help Israel defend itself. That's false
: logic. Killing anyone who doesn't truly deserve it
: is a tragedy.

If you truly believe this, then why does Israel always get a pass?

I would like to relate something to you about Israeli. They are the seat of power in that region. They have the strongest military, the 5th largest nuclear arsenal in the world - undeclared, but hey, no one is really checking. Despite this, they are slated to receive 2.2 billion dollars in military aid from the US.

They are not the poor little lambs that you think

They are just as guilty as their Palestinian neighbors of murder and terrorism. I've seen them in action in Lebanon. I've seen their gunboats playing games - tracking friendlies, I was there when their tanks tried to probe the Marine lines, when they started doing reconnaissance by fire that put the Marines in danger. In fact, during my deployment, most of the problems were generated by the Israeli's.

Also interesting to note: The current Israeli PM was the Minister of Defense. Beirut was his baby.


The entire Arab world knows that they will never get a fair shake with Israel. So why blame just religion?

: If you ever worked for a CIA/DIA contractor then
: you know they made plenty of mistakes because they
: didn't have enough assets and human intel to prove
: anything 100%.

NRO. For a production as large scale as they were initially talking, things like that would not be missed. Not even the legendary "Lab on wheels" could have escaped notice for that length of time. True, it is very difficult to prove anything 100%. Unfortunately, there were unable to prove anything .0001% Instead, they were listening to Chalabi. They liked what he had to say - it obviously fit their program.

: Support for a wartime mission and the servicemen
: executing it requires that you keep your mouth shut
: about the correctness of the mission's premise.

Translation: My fellow Americans, this is how it is, now shut your friggin mouth.

That is not support, that is totalitarianism. Is that what we are fighting for? I think not.

Subsunk said...

Donal/Nimbus:

Useless to argue with the pig. You get dirty and the pig likes it. I guess all three of us are pigs in some way.

In my less than humble opinion, you are both wrong. But I only have the upbringing my father gave me to judge you both by. Feel free to live in your "I'm better than Bush" world.

"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."

Theodore Roosevelt
"Citizenship in a Republic,"
Speech at the Sorbonne, Paris, April 23, 1910

George Bush -- Failure
John Kerry -- Never shall know victory or defeat

Subsunk said...

Nimbus,

By the way, retired officers are not legally allowed to enter another branch. It is double dipping and thus illegal. Once on the retired list, the only way to return is by recall from the service. Since the Army and Marines don't know who I am they cannot recall me. And the Navy needs no more submariners. Not a submariner's war.

Donal,

John Kerry was in the Naval Reserve until his discharge in 1978. Therefore in 1971, his meetings with the North Vietnamese and VietCong representatives were illegal under the UCMJ. Feel free to look it up.

Subsunk

redleg said...

Donal

I look forward to the day you grow up. Please vote your concience. My vote will hopefully cancel yours. Such is democracy.

Mr Nimbus.

I don't talk politics at work. Fixing howitzers, making sure my troopers have all the training and equipment they need and the literally thousands of other things we do on a daily basis in garrison concern me more. While deployed I never asked about a man's politics. Afghan Highway 1 on a GAC isn't the place to ask for such things. All you need to know is the other guy is trained, there for you and mission, and most importantly, wants to be there. By your attitude sir I don't think you could fufill all three. Nothing against you, but you comments and philosophy attacks the underpinnings of why a man fights. You help the enemy in this information war we are fighting, hell have been fighting since Vietnam.

While you say you support your troops yet deny the legality of the conflict you give the enemy, the terrorists and supporters of terror, aid and comfort against us, the soldiers you are allegedly supporting. Thanks but that is an empty promise and intellectually dishonest. How can I, in your words, fight like a lion when I feel that the reasons for me being here are illegal and my public does not support me or my actions. We saw that in Vietnam and the effects on helping the enemy is beyond question. It was so in Somalia as well. Words have meaning, sir, and your words are helping the enemy. I don't mean to tell you what to say but at least realize the implications of your words. Don't tell me and the general public that you are against the war but support the troops. It's dishonest and undermines your service. We are not unthinking automatons, we need a basis, a core of beliefs. You strip part of that away from us by your words and then all we have left to fall back on are our leaders and our soldiers. We are all too human in that.

You may really believe what you say, but most of this is based on your deep distrust of our government. I can see that. This government, this administration undertook the freeing of two countries and have influenced far more by doing the unpopular. It did it remarkably well with more to come. All I ask for is a clear mission and a reason for fighting. President Bush gave us that. President Clinton did not. I don't want to rehash the abortion of Kosovo in 1999, waged by President Clinton and Wesley Clark. 79 days to bomb a third world nation into submission and 5 years later it is a UN ruled nightmare.
The current administration did misunderestimate the wages of peace in Iraq, but they learned from that mistake and we are doing it much better every day. You quote that Rumsfeld ignored the Army Chief of Staff on troop levels when he was right, and this is probably true. But it is also what the combatant commander, Gen Franks asked for. Gen Shinseki started transforming the Army under Clinton when it wasn't cool to do so, and for that we owe him a debt. He also gave us the black beret (a really bad mistake for him) without asking how his soldiers felt about it. He lost a lot of credibility on that and was also considered a "Clintonian" General. Hugh Shelton, great paratrooper that we was, was also in that camp. They had to go. But Shinseki didn't transform the Army fast enough to suit his civilian leaders and I agree wholeheartedly with his decision. Gen Schoomaker has taken us to the next step, which is actively transforming while we are fighting. And we are doing it. Hindsight is 20/20, but this administration learns and will not ignore reality to do the popular thing.

You see the government as all knowing and all seeing, but you know reality isn't like that. We had zero human intelligence and agents on the ground. It was a problem for many years. The best we could rely upon was defectors, and Chalabi and satellites. Things on satellite pictures can look perfectly menacing and in reality be perfectly innocuous. So we were wrong, but it still was not a mistake to invade Iraq. Two countries freed, more on the way. How is this bad? You dislike it because we have shed American blood for it. The American people have evidently gone soft. 6,000 KIA on Iwo Jima in 1945 to take a volcanic island with a servicable airstrip. Why? Or Peliliu? Or Okinawa? Or the Huertgen Forest? 1,000 dead to free two countries would have been an enourmous success 60 years ago. Is life more precious now? Not to Saddam Hussein it seems. 300k in mass graves. A million missing. If the government was wrong on WMDs, it does not change the fact that Saddam Hussein had to fall. Decency demands it, if it is a bit late. I think we should have driven to Baghdad in 1991 and put the murdering bastard out of business then. But we did not and are finishing the job now.

At least your government is doing something. You may be thankful for that. What did Churchill say "Democracy is the worst form of government in the world, except for any other."

I bring Cromwell back into the fray
"I had rather have a plain russet-coated captain that know what he fights for, and loves what he knows, than what you call a gentleman, and is nothing else."

Or Dick Cheney
"Sometimes, being responsible means pissing people off."

Someday I do hope you will learn to trust your government again. You have a mind and are articulate, but this distrust, probably well deserved in your mind, mars your vision. History has shown that this government is worth at least that trust.

Subsunk said...

Redleg says it better than I ever could. In Spades.

Subsunk

mr_nimbus said...

redleg:

I wanted to continue this, so I wrote a response. I would enjoy your input.

http://autogen.blogspot.com/2004/11/whats-veteran-to-do.html