Monday, August 23, 2004

The Battle Has Begun --Two Separate Fronts…

Before I ‘take it to the mattresses’ as promised, I must put forward this disclaimer: I have a terrible ear infection—it feels as if someone is hammering an ice pick into my ear. I haven’t eaten since yesterday morning because it hurts too much to move my jaw –talking hurts too, but I can always manage to do that. I say this not to preface my content, but my writing in general and thought cohesion…Thank you for your patience.

Theater 1: Anarchists vs. the Law

Last night I received and email that said it was from Kfir, who is the co-founder of Protest Warrior. It looked to be a typical list-serve e-mail about updates for upcoming events planned. It wasn’t. It was a message from an Anarchist group that had hacked into Protest Warrior’s website and claimed to have taken everyone’s personal information. I spoke with the FBI this morning and forwarded them ‘said email’. I was glad to see that they were interested in this—(the email also gave instructions how to hack into other sites –such as the RNC, the President’s re-election site, and all venues involved with the upcoming convention --for those on the left: it had just as many disparaging words about Senator Kerry and his affiliates also). This email was wrought with threatening language that claimed members were ‘surrounded’ and that they will ‘lash out and shut the convention down’ etc. I don’t care if this group feels as if this type of behavior is in their ‘scope of rights’ and that they consider it to be an acceptable form of civil disobedience…and ‘not an act of terrorism’ –obviously they know that there is terroristic language in the letter or they wouldn’t have felt the need to say there wasn’t. Telling people that you possess all of their personal information and that they are surrounded is a terroristic threat as far as I am concerned and –it would seem- as far as the FBI is concerned also….

Theater 2: Judicial Watch vs. John Kerry

Kat had the scoop on Drudge! She was the first to report over the weekend that the group ‘Judicial Watch’ had filed a formal complaint concerning John Kerry’s 'awards and post-service activities'. Do you remember when this very group filed a complaint against Dick Cheney to make public those involved in energy consultation? –it was ALL OVER the news… Have you heard a peep about this new complaint against Kerry –even on Fox?

Here is a small excerpt from Judicial Watch’s page regarding this matter:

“…Judicial Watch notes that unresolved allegations against Kerry include: false official reports and statements; dishonorable conduct; aiding the enemy; dereliction of duty; misuse and abuse of U.S. government equipment and property; war crimes; and multiple violations of U.S. Navy regulations and directives, the Uniform Code of Military Justice and the U.S. Code.”

Judicial Watch also is requesting an investigation of Kerry’s anti-war activities. After he was released from active duty but while he was a commissioned officer in the inactive Naval Reserve, Kerry joined the anti-war group Vietnam Veterans Against the War and traveled to Paris to meet with delegations from North Vietnam and the Communist Viet Cong. He held a press conference in Washington, D.C., following the meeting and advocated the “peace proposal,” which included war damage reparations, put forth by the North Vietnamese and Viet Cong.”

“The allegations concerning Kerry’s conduct during the Vietnam War are credible, serious and shocking,” said Judicial Watch President Tom Fitton. “The sooner an investigation begins, the better.”

To read the entire complaint you can go to Judicial Watch

This time there can be no cries about a ‘vast right wing conspiracy’ or ‘republican smear campaign’ as this group has proven its non-partisan nature in the past. I am trying to predict the ‘spin’ that will be placed on this new development (if it ever makes it to the mainstream news). My guess is that they will just stick to the “swift boat veterans are liars’ and ‘this investigation is being embarked upon unjustly as it was prompted by Republican shills’ and ‘lying swift boat bastards’ defense.

Many vets have believed for years that Kerry should have been prosecuted for his anti-war activities –not his personal right to protest, but the fact that he met with the Viet Cong when he was still in the Naval Reserve and that his picture still hangs in the ‘War Remnants’ museum in Ho Chi Minh City…symbolizing the aiding and abetting of ‘the enemy’. To follow are some details of that charge:


(Above) John Kerry being greeted by the general secretary of the Communist Party, Comrade Do Muoi.

Photo taken by Bill Lupetti (a Swift Boat Veteran visiting Vietnam that came across this display).

The picture hangs in the ‘American protesters' section of the “War Crimes Museum" (now called War Remnants Museum) in Ho Chi Minh City (former Saigon). The room in which the picture hangs is dedicated to 'foreign activists who contributed to the Communist Victory in the Vietnam War'. There is no word on whether Jane Fonda is featured in this collection.

"The Vietnamese communists clearly recognize John Kerry's contributions to their victory," Jeffrey Epstein said. "This find can be compared to the discovery of a painting of Neville Chamberlain hanging in a place of honor in Hitler's Eagle's Nest in 1945." (Epstein is a Vietnam Vet against Kerry).

The DNC and its ‘Kerry-kool-aid-drinkers’ can keep claiming that none of this is true –or relevant. But when Senator Kerry ‘Reported for Duty’, at the DNC Buyer’s Remorse Convention, he not only made this investigation relevant, but imperative for someone who is campaigning to be the Commander in Chief –and thankfully, Judicial Watch feels the same.


For one of the best pieces, on why Vietnam is now relevant to this debate, that I have read thus far, please visit Adeimantus at http://adeimantus.blogspot.com
It's worth the trip!

51 comments:

Paul G. said...

ALa71 Wrote:"This time there can be no cries about a ‘vast right wing conspiracy’ or ‘republican smear campaign’ as this group has proven its non-partisan nature in the past."

judicialwatch.org is registered to one, Tom Fitton.
From the opinioninc.com website.
Tom Fitton, 30, of Washington, DC, is the Editor and Publisher of Opinion, Inc.
In addition to running Opinion, Inc., Fitton is separately President of Judicial Watch, Inc., a conservative legal watchdog group.

Not exactly non-partisan.

It is getting to be quite dizzying, yet fun watching all you righties spin yourselves in circle after circle.

As for hackers and the protestwarrior site, I wouldn't put it past that bunch to have hoaxed it themselves.
Protesters who needs 'em.

ALa said...

Paul -I think that you know my point was that anyone who was suing Cheney is obviously not in bed with the Administration -by doing that, they did prove that they were looking out for the interest of the people in a non-partisan fashion --and I am sure you were all for Cheney's investigation!

ALa said...

"Judicial Watch, Inc. was established in 1994 to serve as an ethical and legal "watchdog" over our government, legal, and judicial systems to promote a return to ethics and morality in our nation's public life.

As a non-partisan, non-profit foundation based in Washington, D.C., and with offices throughout the country, Judicial Watch relies on supporters, like yourself, to help us root out corruption in our government and to make sure offenders are brought to justice." JW 'About Us' page

Paul G. said...

http://opinioninc.com/
The editor and Publisher of Opinion, Inc. is Tom Fitton, political commentator and conservative activist.

http://opinioninc.com/tom.html
Tom Fitton

Opinion, Inc.'s Editor and Publisher


Tom Fitton, 30, of Washington, DC, is the Editor and Publisher of Opinion, Inc.

In addition to running Opinion, Inc., Fitton is separately President of Judicial Watch, Inc., a conservative legal watchdog group.

Fitton also serves as political analyst for America's Voice television network.

Fitton had been a regular of America's Voice Gen-X political discussion show, "Youngbloods."

Citing some of Fitton's comments, Time Magazine called "Youngbloods" "entertainingly fiery."

The Washington Post called Fitton the "star" of Youngbloods who "keep[s] the show from falling into the dreaded Policy Drone."

Fitton's other media appearances include:

* ABC's "Politically Incorrect with Bill Maher"
* Fox News Channel
* MSNBC
* C-Span's "Saturday Journal"
* "Phil Donahue Show"
* CNBC's "Bull Session"
* "AM Philadelphia" (ABC affiliate)
* Quoted in Time, Vanity Fair, The Washington Post, and The Baltimore Sun.
* Guest appearances on talk radio programs throughout the country.

Fitton has worked with numerous conservative organizations, including Accuracy in Media, the conservative media watchdog.

-------------------------------------

Taking a shot at Dick doesn't automatically make you non-partisan.
It also doesn't mean your actually doing it to get information or the truth, lawsuits are often filed to confuse the process, or simply to get your word in in another lawsuit.

leftyjones said...

First of all....is that an earache or is it your guilty conscience demanding that you see the light and move left?? Just kidding, I hope you feel better, earaches are a nasty business.
My main comment regarding Judicial Watch is that to my knowledge the reason they don't get much attention every time they file a complaint is because they get nothing done. Look at their cases page...it shows a huge list of complaints they have filed or cases they've tried to bring. I didn't read every last one but it seems that most were directed at Clinton and that they don't seem to have had much success of any kind against Bush, Cheney or Clinton. As a result, I think the reason that they aren't all over the news or Fox is because Judicial Watch filing a complaint happens a lot and goes nowhere. I guess we'll see.

One other thing....claiming to be non-partisan in your mission statement doesn't mean that you are non-partisan or that your goals aren't aligned with certain parties. Your reputation over time will prove your organization to be non-partisan.....not what you say about yourself.

And wow.....nice ad at the top of the page. It amazes me that Republicans think that the towers being hit is an image that helps them. That is, when it doesn't disgust me that its become a campaign backdrop.
It happened on their watch!!!
It should be a moment of shame....not a badge.
I can see the TV ad now.

Airplanes flying towards the towers, fireballs, people running from clouds of dust and the voiceover begins:

On September the 11th, 2001, Terrorists attacked the United States of America and the World Trade Towers in New York.......killing over three thousand people and bringing the towers to the ground.
These terrorists, fear George W. Bush so much that they attacked on my watch and as we know now from my scrambling that day, we were not prepared. But we have attacked Iraq in the meantime and you did get a chance to see me in that flight suit with the big "Mission Accomplished" banner behind me...and that's why I'm asking for your vote in November. Because since America was unprepared and on top of it, has been made to look pretty consistently foolish these last 3 years...... We simply can't afford to have John Kerry be President.

Remember folks, terrorists are afraid of me, thats why they attacked when I was in office. They knew I'd say things like, "bring it on" and "dead or alive" and "shock and awe".....and that scares them or helps them recruit BUT either way....I'm tough on terror.
In fact, if I can do to Al-Qaeda even a fraction of what I've done to the budget surplus and America in general....they don't stand a chance.
I'm George W. Bush and I approved this massage...hehehe..I mean message.

ALa said...

Lefty: FYI-this isn't a real Bush Cheney ad...one of the 'freepers' made it. It was done on Bush's watch after 5 years of planning it and four missed capture/kill attempts under Clinton...Hmmm are we back to the 8 YEARS VS. 8 MONTHS debate?

riceburner147 said...

Re: Kerrys VN record
I am a registered republican (but not a lockstep one) and a religious conservative (mostly). Having said that. I believe that the Vietman War was an immoral war that our govt chose to fight for both corrupt and ill-advised reasons. Corrupt because of the huge profits made by US Corps. and also assisting in the heroin trade. Ill-advised because the MAJOR reason given to sacrifice 50,000 American soldiers lives (KIA) was the "Domino Theory" This theory was that the communists would win in Vietnam, then spread across SE Asia. History (and ANYONE with an ounce of sense at the time) has shown this to be a riduculous idea, the Viet Mihn (Correct term for VC) hated the chinese communists for 2000 years and would never have been their willing ally (beyond needing support to fight the US) The Govt of Vietnam then, and now, not the puppet govt we helped to prop up, has always been sympethetic to the US. The leaders stated that they admired the US (many were educated here incl Ho Che Mihn) before we supplanted the French. I now believe that those who were against the war were the real patriots, trying to save the lives of needlessly sacrificed US soldiers. Again, it was our GOVERNMENT, at that time that was wrong, not the footsoldiers who were merely doing their duty. Tho i do not support, nor can i vote for him, Kerry saw what was happening in VN and had the fortitude to point out how wrong our Govt policy was at that time. I have had the oppurtunity to read the autobiography of Vo Ngyuen Ziap, who is considered the Geo Washington of Vietman. He was completely for the US and never wanted to fight us, although when forced to he did so with great effectiveness. He was educated in the US and France and would have been an ally of ours if our policy was not horribly bungled by our govt at the time.
Perhaps Kerry's being in the inactive military makes what he did problematic, I do not know the law. The message he was relating was however a correct one. I am getting sick of the whole ridiculous focus on the VN war that both campaigns are spending time on.....let move on to substantive issues.

this we'll defend said...

Since when is Judicial Watch non-partisan? What's next, the "non-partisan" RNC? ALa71, you've really outdone yourself this time. Do a little more research before you think the "non-partisan" judicial watch is anything more than an extreme right-wing group.

Really. The false charges just keep on coming - but that way the real issues aren't being debated. And thinking about the real issues our nation faces is the last thing the Bush administration wants this election season.

this we'll defend said...

Next time I think I will read the other comments before I post - looks like others pointed out judicial watch's extreme right-wing connections already.

Sorry.

ALa said...

At the end of the day all that counts is that Kerry is losing the Independent vote -which polls show he is ...in spades...
That means that us 'right-wing nut jobs' aren't the only ones that find the swift boat vets believable. Also the Kerry campaign has now conceded that the first purple heart may have been 'inadvertently' given for a 'inadvertently self-inflicted wound' --that was after using Kerry's own diary entries which stated (after the date of the purple heart) that they 'were lucky and had yet to take enemy fire'...they have now conceded this, Cambodia and Kerry regrets the language that he used and some of the accusations that he made in 1971...get off the Titanic TWD --it IS going down!

redleg said...

Ala71

where did you get that one? Haven't heard hide nor hair of it here, and trust me all of Fort Bragg would have been talking about it. I can't believe they would concede that without a fight. Not after a Navy 04 and and a Navy 06 Chaplain were convicted of falsifying their Vietnam Service.

I can't believe that's true without a citation of some sort. If it's true he will have well and truly lost the vet vote. For his sake I hope not.

this we'll defend said...

Ala71, you keep claiming things that aren't supported by the facts. I don't think you are lying, but you are sure wrong an awful lot. You claimed Kerry admitted he lied about Cambodia - not true. You claimed Kerry admitted to lying before the Senate in 1971, "backtracking" in MTP. Not true. You claimed at first that Swiftvets were "tripartisan" and that is for sure not true. You claimed that Judicial Watch is nonpartisan - no way in hell.

Now you make this claim. With respect, can I get a source besides Instapundit to reinforce your claim here that Kerry has admitted he didn't deserve his first purple heart and that it was due to a self-inflicted wound? Please? Since I think it is about as reliable as Swiftvets - in short, not at all?

You say "At the end of the day all that counts is that Kerry is losing the Independent vote." Well, thank you for admitting it. The right doesn't care about truth, or an informed vote of the people, and doesn't want an honest an informed debate. All they care about is that Kerry loses - in your own words, "all that counts is that Kerry is losing."

And you claim Sen. Kerry will do or say "anything to win."

It isn't the Titanic I'm worried about, it is the ship of state. Election tricks, skullduggery and manipulations are shooting holes through our Republic's deck and you cheer because it means your guy gets to be captain.

tescosuicide said...

This is all so screwed up.... I think it's sick that we did so little after 9/11. I was getting more and more disgusted every day we didn't attack. As far as I'm concerned, if Saddam was even the slightest bit pleased about 9/11, considering his history, he deserved way more than he got. Why do we have a Military? Why do we have weapons? I thought it was to protect the American people..... am I wrong?? Any country that supports terrorism (including Saudi Arabia) should be a target. These countries ARE a threat. We simply have not done enough. Our people have died, our buildings are gone and our way of life has been seriously disturbed. You can hate bush for your petty domestic issues, but he did the right thing in Afghanistan and he's doing the right thing in Iraq. I really do not believe this dork Kerry will do as well.

Frater Bovious said...

A comment and a question.

Comment: A lot of bad decisions have been made by the US with regard to almost any asian country based on the word 'communist'. That word in Asia does not mean in practice what it did or does in Europe. In 'Communist China' you just as much have the changing of a dynasty, a centuries old activity in China, as anything else.

I read once somewhere that (I guess Ho Chi Minh, though I am not sure) agitated for US support of his efforts against the French, but since he was a member of the French Communist Party, that was all but impossible.

The emotion attached to words such as Communist and Conservative and Republican sure do interfere with the thought and decision making process.

Question: What is the status of someone that is a commissioned office in the reserves (and does it matter if inactive or active) who meets with the enemy? Was this before or after peace broke out? Anyone have any definitive information on this? Words like 'consorting with the enemy' come to mind, but I don't know if that is a made for tv movie term, or something serious. And I don't know when this activity took place. Surely anything done after the war ended is in a different arena than if during the war. fb

tescosuicide said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ALa said...

It was on Brit Hume today (which I guess will be re-run late tonight....) It was the first that I had heard of it too --I wasn't sure if it was anywhere else yet because I have been on pain meds most of the day...It has to be somewhere on the net -someone else will have to do the research as I think I am dying...
I know it was because of his own journal entry (not sure personal journal or boat log...Is that also referred to as a journal?)
I also didn't say that "Kerry admitted" I said the Kerry campaign conceeded that the PH may have been....blah blah blah...
http://washingtontimes.com/op-ed/20040818-092342-5914r.htm

As for Cambodia --are you kidding me...they can't find ONE collaborator and he said it was SEARED and now he's saying ...well maybe it wasn't then maybe it was weeks after --and that is all over. The problem is that you will have to accept lesser news sources on this topic as it isn't being covered by Mr. Rather and his ilk.

Judicial Watch is non-partisan. If you think differently that is your opinion --but officially they are non-partisan. The swift vets are tri-partisan as the group consists of Democrats, Republicans and Independents...that's three or tri....
I didn't say he admitted to lying --I said that he admitted that the language that he used was wrong...using the word atrocities -now all the specific that he mentioned WERE atrocities --so if he now says he shouldn't have used that word and that his language may have gone overboard what does that mean?
Your funny...you actually talk like your word is the end -all -be -all of what is 'truth'...it makes me laugh. I watch news all day long -it's what I do. Fox, CNN, C-span, MSNBC. I should always carry a pen to transcribe info, but unfortunately I am usually folding wash, cleaning the playroom or emptying the dishwasher at the same time...

Paul G. said...

'Judicial Watch is non-partisan. If you think differently that is your opinion --but officially they are non-partisan.'

ALa71, I don't know why your on pain meds, but you need to back off on your dosage.
LOOK AT MY PRIOR POST
No matter they call themselves non-partisan, you cannot call yourself 'In addition to running Opinion, Inc., Fitton is separately President of Judicial Watch, Inc., a conservative legal watchdog group.' on one site you own, and then call yourself non-partisan on the actual site, and be 'officially' non-partisan.
You can call yourself Nancy Drew, it is not going to make it true.

Kerry claims he still carries shrapnel in his leg. I'll buy it, you'll demand medical records, and we will all continue to see a combat Vet attacked for serving.

I find the attitude of the SBVFT, the republican party, and the conservative movement in general shameful.
Remember, I'm a Vet, the son of a carrer veteran.
You may not like the lawful protesting Kerry did after he left Vietnam, you may not like the truth of what was relayed in the hearings he testified at, you may not like his democratic affiliation or mopy puppy dog look but when it comes to the record of a combat veteran who was honerably discharged... well mam, please pardon my slang, STFU.
As a veteran I've had it with this whole pile of excrement, it dishonors the service, the veterans and the country.
Yes I've lost my sense of humor.
Now God save us all, I hope we don't lose the republic.

ALa said...

...yet you have no problem disregarding the honor of the 254 swift vets --see, this is where I lose my sense of humor...don't elevate one to dishonor 254. I am sick of this too, but can't you see that this NEVER would have been an issue. Bush certainly wasn't going to bring it up after all the grief he's taken for the NG. Kerry brought it up. Am I happy about it -Yes. Expose the selfish bastard. He sat by and watched ad after ad by his 527s (one that said Bush was ‘poisoning pregnant women’) and didn't utter a word -now that the tables are turned he is outraged --it's all a bunch of bullshit and he deserves the scrutiny. He shouldn't have run on actions that he was 'ashamed of' --he should have stuck to his 20 yr. senate record instead of his 4 month Vietnam record and none of this would be happening. Stop with the Judicial Watch --anyone that caused more heat for the White House over the already over-publicized energy debate was no friend of the administration. I would've loved to hear what you all had to say when that was filed....
Whatever...I am going back to bed. If you guys can't even admit that Kerry brought this on himself and Vietnam shouldn't have been mentioned to begin with then the conversation has to end there...

hugsnotslugs said...

Paul,
When you said you were a vet does that mean you, like help sick animals and stuff? Does being around animals all day help you to understand all this complicated politics stuff better? When you make an animal well, does it show it's gratitude by licking you? Is that fun?

Cigarette Smoking Man from the X-Files said...

Thus far, all I can see in counterpoint from the Kerry camp on SBVT is "it's a lie; it's a lie; it's a lie" with a giant dose of wash-rinse-repeat. And yet at the same time, you see that same campaign making "corrections" to a string of statements made previously about time served in Cambodia, magic CIA hats, how many days Kerry spent at a hospital (corrected down to ZERO), and a litany of other things formerly "seared into" our Kerry's memory, and now duly "unseared".

So for a "pack of lies", these Swiftboat Vets sure have, if nothing else, prompted quite a lot of tap-dancing, corrections, prevarications, hemming, hawing, and outright flip-flopping on the part of the Kerry campaign.

And TWD, it is amazingly ironic to say "stop talking about Kerry's war record and get back to the issues", when Kerry presented his war record AS THE ISSUE. What degree of blindness and fanaticism does it take not to see that? I don't even vote Republican and I see it.

Bush has taken the high road, as a President should, and said Kerry should be proud of his war record. Of course, that's an invitation to Kerry to open up his dangerous mouth some more about wild fantasies gleaned from watching Apocalypse Now a few too many times (probably rewinding and replaying the Redux clip with the Playboy bunnies in the helicopters, when Theresa's away on "business", and imagining that it's he in the cockpit with Miss May, as she prattles on about how much she likes birds...) And when Kerry accepts that invitation, and puts on his magic CIA hat yet again, and runs around with his plastic gun to play Army some more, and his aids and consultants rapidly shuttle him away from any cameras or independant journalists, post-haste, what gimcrack arsenal of sophistry will you resort to then to try and call it anything other than a "meltdown", on his part?

Post-traumatic stress, by any other name, can still give fantastically wierd results. Would you want to be an Iraqi civilian the first time one of their soccer players spouts off against a President Kerry, and he has his finger on the nuke buttons?

And what's all this cognitive diffidence about releasing war records which could easily prove or disprove many of the allegations made by the Veterans?

Paul G. said...

HugsnotSlugs,

Let's see...
I took this oath thing about defending the constitution from all enemies foriegn and domestic, swore I was not and had not been a member of the communist party.
They shaved my head, dressed me all up in green, busted up my legs, insulted my mother, your mother, everybodys mother.
They sent me to a foriegn country where I was frequently called Yank, and Yankee and told to go home. And occasionaly told thank you, but for what they we're not sure.
Forced day in and day out to look at massive volumes of weapons of murder and destruction (not ours).
Woken up at 2am night after night because apparently some of the folks I was watching all those weapons for thought I was the enemy.
Had a few bombs go off in places I had left shortly before all the glass came out of the windows.
Constantly followed by the KGB, Interpol, CID and anybody else who had an acronym and a secret police.
Put on guard duty with an M-16 rifle and no ammo at a secure location because there was word we were going to be hit by terrorists.

And then I delivered little pomerainian puppies in my spare time.

F-off.

Paul G. said...

'..yet you have no problem disregarding the honor of the 254 swift vets'

Some of them YES, no problem, they removed the honor themselves.
You see Ala, some of them are starting to recant and confess that they signed onto SBVFT because of Kerry's post service activities.

Kerry had no choice but to bring up his military record, imagine the hub-bub if he had tried to pretend that the period of his life prior to congress didn't happen.
I really can't accept the statement that he brought this on himself, other than the fact that he did become a hero when he earned his bronze star (the guy he saved is still kinda happy about it) and eventually ran for president.
The same can be said for our current president in that regard.
He brought it on himself when he put helping on a political campaign ahead of putting his part time military commitment first like most, and then decided to run for president.

So far as I know, nobody has besmirched the combat record of the 254, other than themselves.

ALa said...

Did you even read the article that you linked? That was strange as he didn't recant anything --just the opposite. He said that if his award is based on the premise of enemy fire that his is also 'fraudulent'...
There was no recanting...

McWizard said...

So after thirty three years someone is actually going to do something about this narcissistic bloviator John Kerry. I'll never forget watching him "Testify" about "His" Vietnam experience. My brother, who had just come back from two years service in the special forces, was so angry he went silent. You did not want him "Silent" towards you. A few days later he finally broke his mood and began to talk about his experiences. Something that he had not done since he got home. He told me of the inhuman cruelty of the Viet Cong and their crimes against the citizenry. "Who the fuck does that guy think he's talking about anyway. It was the VC doin' that shit. Not us. Whose fucking side is he on?" "That's VC propaganda he's spreadin'. !And he was an officer!?!". He never opened his mouth about Vietnam again but he would curse John Kerry every time he heard his name.

redleg said...

Paul

as another vet-- blow me. If you didn't appreciate your military service thanks for getting out. Only vets who agree with you should debate you I guess.

Thurlow is the guy who said he let JFK write the AARs and that he received his Bronze Star 3 months after he left the service. He didn't lie, his citation reads the same as JFKs. It is useless to talk about the he said-he said any longer. Talk about what he did when he came home a decorated combat veteran and made statements and conducted himself as any communist stooge would have been proud of. Despite that Kerry had knowlingly made false statements about Cambodia, corrections nevertheless-- he knew they were not true. He was using them as hyperbole (exaggeration for sake of effect) which is a kind way of lying. He a repugnant man who once served honorably and bravley in Vietnam. The American public is beginning to realize what a small man they have nominated. God help us if we replace a Lincoln with a McClellan.

McWizard said...

This may be a puzzle John Kerry can't resolve.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=14774
If this is considered spamming here please say and I wont do it again.

Paul G. said...

Redleg, with the proper ordnance, bring it on over.

I love what I did, I do it again today.

But to pretend it was 'all fun and games' would be a lie now wouldn't it.

I really hate it when some "PRICK" deliberately calls a Veteran a Veterinarian.

Paul G. said...

ALa71

Apparently you missed the end of the article;
The military record disputing Thurlow's account brings to four the number of "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" whose credibility have come under question. John O'Neill, leader of SBVT and co-author of the book, has been caught in several lies about his involvement in GOP political causes. Retired Admiral Roy Hoffman has given conflicting statements in newspaper interviews and former Lt. Cmdr. George Elliott recanted his statements in the book and then recanted his recant.

redleg said...

Paul

excuse my rudeness before, I was fired up by your incivility to another.

I enjoy what I do now, but it is never fun and games. It is deadly serious and must treated as such.

And vets are people too.

Paul G. said...

Redleg,
I was stationed at Wiesbaden Army Airbase for 2 and 1/2 years. I was Air Force and the base at the time was Army mechanized infantry, I learned real fast the fundamental differences between philosophy and operations of the two branches of the service.
The organization I was in was also multi-service with Navy, Marines, Army and civilians under an Air Force umberella an inspiring cultural mix. The specific location I was at was all Air Force on the Army base.
One overriding theme in the organization was that were all soldiers, we were just in different branches.
A difference between the services was basic training, not just the differences in the physical part but big difference in the philosophical part.
By and large in the Air Force we send our officers into combat and the enlisted personel stay behind the lines (by and large, it's not universal).
That fundemental difference creates a different survival strategy.
In most services your trained to respond instantly on command, not stop and think, the action must be immediate and instinctive. It's survival.
The Air Force trained for command, stop, understand, think, question, resolve, move.
Why?
Because if we made a mistake a plane fell out of the air, got shot down, failed to deploy, failed to deliver ordnance/cargo, delivered them in the wrong place, the wrong time.
Anyways fast movement was contra survival more often than not.

Some of the folks I worked with looked down on the 'mechies' as they called them.
I couldn't do that because I knew when I went to my duty post that they were relying on me to do everything perfect so that when called on they could do thier jobs, at the right place, at the right time with the right information to save all of our families.
In my job a speck of dust could hide an entire SSM or SAM site.
Ever find yourself screaming at a speck of dust or a scratch so small you had to magnify it 1000x to even see it?

After all these years among civilians, I still don't completely comprehend thier view of the military.
Would I really even want them to understand?
But one thing I won't let them do is insult the service without reproach, I had to quietly tollerate it while I was enlisted, I have an obligation now based on my experiance and bonds to the service to open my mouth and if need be respond to insult with 'incivility' as you put it.

The veterans of 30 years ago were perfectly justified in thier criticism of many of the actions of the anti-war protesters.

Before you jump me again, I'd appreciate it if you would take a non-instinctive 10 seconds and read what I am responding to.
I really would have expected you to have been offended as well.

Bigandmean said...

I've been around the military most of my life. My Dad and 6 uncles were veterans of World War II. I never heard any of them use their tours of duty as a tool to seek pats on the back from others. I never heard any of them complain about what life was like in the service. They did their duty and never believed they were entitled to anything for having done it. They went in, got shot at, got shot, and one almost starved at the hands of the Japanese.

They all received medals. None ever personally applied for any of the metals they received. When they were finished with the military, they got over it and got on with their lives.

Paul, I'm sorry they shaved your head and made you wear green. Being waked up at 2:00 AM must have been pretty tough. They forced you day in and day out to view massive piles of weapons of mass destruction and murder and dammit, some of them weren't even ours? Pulling guard duty can be a real pain in the butt too, and then you have to put up with being followed by KGB. And now you have to endure somebody you refer to as a PRICK sending you a subtle message that maybe we all know you are a vet and you don't really need to remind us anymore.

What do you have against veternarians anyway?

Paul G. said...

Bigandmean;

I'm not sorry they shaved my head, why are you?
Where did you see me snuffling for a pat on the back?
Is there a problem with at least 75% of you neocons, some sort of brain disorder that keeps you from reading an entire thread in order and referencing the person and message being responded to?
Fine for you and your illustrious uncles (pat pat).
I only referenced my own background to show that I had a personal stake in how veterans are treated.
I didn't know there was a contest going.
10 of my 11 uncles served in World War Two, the 11th in Korea and my father in Nam.
Not one of them ever complained about thier military service in front of me until after I was enlisted.
I was however educated about what to expect before I enlisted and honestly, what I experienced was far better than any of them had.

If anyone here thought I was bellyaching I would like to appologise I was not, I was attempting to illustrate a strong difference between the life of a serviceman and a veterinarian.
Honestly folks deliberately calling a former member of our armed services a medical practicioner for animals is an insult.
There is nothing wrong with being a veterinarian, and in fact my family's veterinarian is also a veteran.
As are our GP(family doctor), our Dentist, our Exterminator and the mechanic that works on our car.
I don't run around thanking them for it, I have always felt that service to the country was it's own reward.
Those of you that have thanked me in the past via email and blogs may also note that I have not acknowledged your thanks.
It's not because I'm rude but because I think there are only two proper ways to thank a veteran.
One keep your promises to the veterans of the present, future and past.
That means promises of pay, medical, and care for the wives of veteran's.
No Vet should ever have to beg for medical care, food or shelter.
No wife of a career Vet or the Veteran should have to worry about what will happen to her when he dies.
Two keep faith with the veterans of the past by keeping faith with the veterans of the future. No war should be entered into lightly, no serviceperson or thier familys should want for food, shelter, proper medical care, or tools in sufficient quantity and quality to do the job of defending this country and themselves.
Flags fly high and everybody puffs up with patriotism when the battle is raging, but when it's over and the bills have to be paid, it's the veterans they forget the day after they put up a monument.

Two point One.
Wake up, get as much news as you can about the affairs of the world. Put a globe of the world in your livingroom, teach your children, be sure they know where San Marino, Mayotte, Ghana, Chile, Benin, Bhutan are, and why the people there are not evil and as entitled to the vision of our founding fathers as we are.
Never stop learning for yourselves about the people and governments of this planet.
Never consider your opinion unimportant, someone fought for it, and died for it without ever knowing you.

redleg said...

Paul

I would like to introduce you to the concept of sarcasm, but I fear it would take too long. I will let you look it up for yourself. Take yourself seriously, much?

Trust me we are taking care of our dead and wounded. The 82nd personally buried (against regulations) all of our 39 war dead. We are taking care of their families too. You are being disingenuous when you say we are not. The government should not give every vet and his family a free hand out. I addressed this to you on my blog. No vet I know would ask for much anyway. This is the land of free, not the home of the hand out. We take care of our casualties and vets in peace and war. I have seen it, you may have a different view. Few militaries in the history of the world do what we do for our veterans. Creating a welfare state is not the way to ensure your freedoms.

Your view of the service may have left with a feeling to love and respect all humankind. I have come to know that all of humanity does not love us, even when we mean to do good. So if I know where Bhutan is, and they mean to deliver evil to me, I will be prepared to kill them or anywhere else we are directed to go. Respect those who have gone before and remember who is protecting your freedom now. It's usually a 21 year old shit-scared private who is going to do his best no matter what the circumstances.

Paul G. said...

redleg,

Trust me I know sarcasm.
And trust me, I know more about those who would want to hurt us than you can imagine.
I also know that the US has failed TO KEEP IT'S PROMISES to veterans of the past.
I didn't say shit about welfare or a hand out. Just keeping promises.

Your 39 war dead are not veterans any longer my friend, they're casualties.

Answer me something...
What makes you spew crap like this ;
"Your view of the service may have left with a feeling to love and respect all humankind."
IS there something wrong with loving my enemy?
Should I NOT respect my enemy?

It really makes me wonder about you.
A soldier that does not love and respect humanity is a soldier unfit to serve.

ALa said...

I have never served, but I find it hard to believe that any branch of our military teaches "love thine enemy"...

redleg said...

Paul

so says the meterologist. I am not going to give the voters of France or the leaders of Bhutan a vote in US National Security.

Love your enemy, Know your enemy, and understand him. Respect him all you want. Just be prepared to kill him. I will and am prepared to appreciate any culture I come into contact with. Try to kill me or mine and I will visit the same to you. Respect should not stop you from carefully placing your M68 over his chest and stopping his terrorist ass.

Trusting your government to take care of you is like voting for Democrats. You never quite get the handout you thought you were going to. Impeaching my dead paratroopers doesn't giving you any more credibility. They are still veterans my friend. They gave more for this country than you or I will ever know. And I know what their families are receiving as their just due. That is not a handout. They and their families have not and will not ever receive all that was promised them. They are the promise of a free future so you can keep spouting off your santimonious bullshit. I respect them always. Your posts here and on my blog certainly point to your glorification of the welfare state. Pardon me if you're not.

I love and respect humanity by serving in the company of others who protect the nation. You just can't seem to understand that.

Remember
PFC Jarod Dennis KIA 25 April 2003 Shkin Afghanistan
B 3-504 PIR

redleg said...

Ala71

You can love them all you want. It just shouldn't stop you from doing was has to be done. But wait, perhaps taking out the Taliban and Saddam Hussein was wrong? How will we ever live with ourselves? Honestly, Paul makes me tired.

Sun Tzu said to "know the enemy and know yourself and in a thousand battles you will be victorious..."

can't remember the section but he's been dead a millenia or two so I'll guess he'll forgive me.

Paul G. said...

Redleg,

'Your posts here and on my blog certainly point to your glorification of the welfare state.'

I haven't posted shit on your blog, I haven't even visited it.
I did not Impeach our dead paratroopers.
I did not advocate a welfare state.

'Just be prepared to kill him.'
Did I say otherwise?

'I love and respect humanity by serving in the company of others who protect the nation. You just can't seem to understand that.'

You can't seem to understand that I did the same.
And still do.
If you think I make you tired, Imagine how I feel trying to defend posts on your blog one I never visited. Slanderer.

You want to hate me because I oppose Bush and am willing to accept Kerry in his place.
That in your mind justifies any slander, or spew you want to throw at me.
Honestly, if I thought Bush was the right man for the job, had enough of the things needed to do the job, I'd be right behind his re-election. I simply don't think he has it. Does Kerry?
Maybe, maybe not but but I know that what we've got isn't working.

ALa71

You have never been to a post Chapel then.

redleg said...

Paul

August 18 on my blog

I quote-Paul said...
Having been on both sides, part of the family left behind and later being one of the servicemen I can say that both groups appreciate Ben's letter.
Now if Congress and our Military commanders would just get a clue.

Maybe if the wives would stop being such 'good wives' and complain a little more and a little louder something would get better instead of the same or worse for the dependents.

The wife/husband of a career serviceman, or a serviceman who dies in service should be entitled to his full pension for the duration of her/his life, she/he gave every bit as much as as the servicemember.
The way it is now, when an a carrer enlisted person dies the spouse gets nothing or nearly nothing.

Shame on us. This is no way to treat people we call heroes.

so I responded:redleg said...
Having been on both sides as well...what you say is not true.

Th spouse receive an initial death gratuity of 12,000 to handle buriel expenses, all unpaid leave and allowances and the servicemembers SGLI (up to and usually 250k).

Military service is not a guarantee of a free ride. It is service and it is sacrifice. You are trying to tell me a career soldier dying before he retires is more worthy of a full pension than private who is killed in action. 1SG Utt of 3/82 FA who died in Iraq during a 122mm rocket attack deserves a pension and PFC Jerod Dennis of 3-504 PIR who died of wounds sustained in a firefight in Afghanistan does not? The system must be fair and equitable. A free government hand out is not fair. We paid both of these men the great honors due to them as all those who have given their life for their country, but you stretch the argument too far in saying we have not provided for our veterans or our dead. Honors do not always equate to money.

These ladies give every day to support their husbands, wives and their units during the most trying times. They give and they don't ask for much. They squared me away as a rear detachment commander and I tried my best to be worthy of their service as well as their husbands. You could try to do the same. I remembered their sacrifices as much as possible while I was deployed and I remember their support...in packages of Harlequin romances, playing cards and toletries at a remote firebase on the Pakistan border. In cards from schoolkids in Virginia. A pine tree mailed from appreciative family to soldiers serving their country. That is what Ben Stein was talking about. I think their service is the hardest and often the most unappreciated. Love is a powerful thing. Stop using theirs to fit your message.

Stop twisting the message to suit a partisan agenda.

thanks


I repeat. You posted there and here with your same agenda. So no slander-- truth. Or someone else is using your profile.

I don't hate you..you suffer from some strange disease that makes it impossible to see clearly. I am just tired of you. Your welfare state dialectic is getting old and you don't even realize you are spouting such things. Please take a deep breath, and think through your thoughts before you type. Then you won't sound so much like an asshat when you post. Or maybe just remember where you posted when you sounded like an asshat.

Paul G. said...

Redleg,
'I am not going to give the voters of France or the leaders of Bhutan a vote in US National Security.'

I didn't say to. but every US citizen has an obligation to know hat is happening with the government and foriegn and internal policy of France, or North Korea.

Because you see it thier own way the citizens of Russia, France, Bhutan wherever do have a 'vote' when it comes to US national security.
If people let leaders like Saddam or KIM Chong-il control thier countries they directly affect US national security.
If we as citizens (military and civilian) do not examine the actions of our government and corperations then there will be a never ending stream of Saddam Hussein's and KIM Chong-il's.
As I recall there were 2 reasons for invading Afghanistan.
The most immediate being to bring the bastards of September 11th to justice or kill them.
The second was to put right what had gone wrong after we walked away from Afghanistan following the failure of the Soviet occupation, leaving it a place for monsters like Osama Bin Laden.

Long term failure in foriegn policy is what put and kept Saddam in place.
We knew who was selling him what for weapons and materiel and for how long we did not exert enough pressure, or the right type of pressure on both 'allies' and foes to stop it.

I also have never said we should pull out of Iraq, God no.
What a mess that would be.

There is no doubt that we have battles to fight, wars to win.
All I have advocated is that families of the men fighting those battles not have to live on food stamps or live in substandard housing off base.
That those veterans who made the sacrifice of a carrer be given what was promised.
The best recruiting aid the military has is the veterans.
Make an investment in the future and keep a promise.

Paul G. said...

Redleg.

Right now I just want to spit venom (at you) the rest of the world should not have to suffer it so I'll keep the tone lower than I'd like.

There is nothing SOCIALIST in what I posted and honestly I had forgotten or was not aware that was your site. Are you bright enough to provide a link?

You said posts like I had been a regular visitor waving a workers party flag.

I stand behind what I said.

Civilians and reservists had to scream for basic medical care for the reserve soldiers back from the wars, in the un airconditioned quarters south of here in Georgia.
Disgraceful.

I never suggested taking services away from our current
military personel to give to the veterans, you injected that bit of propaganda.

Don't tell me about the plight of the wives of the enlisted men, you don't have a clue, nor do you really care.
Your an officer, concerned with the duties of an officer and number one on that list is the political wrangling, handholding and asskissing needed to secure your next promotion. And the incidentals like the needs of your men. You can fool a civilian, you can fool and old timer from when there was a bond of honor between all members, but you can't fool me.

I respect the veterans, but I've always had a problem with officers like you.

redleg said...

Paul

you are dining out on the democratic party line

I have had soldiers on food stamps and on WIC. They don't stay on it long with good leadership. But I have not seen nor have you proved how we have failed to keep our promises to our veterans. Just saying it and repeating it does not make it true. I also have not seen substandard housing off post. My 1950's era barracks are something else, though new ones are being built. Tell me which promise has not been kept? You know not of which you speak, and it is tiresome. You do keep me awake during rehearsals though, for which I am grateful.

And I guess I being categorized by you now. I was enlisted, now I am commissioned. I am still a soldier. My soldiers receive the best that I can give them, or I find the leaders responsible. You speak of news reports a year old but don't know (pardon me ladies) what the fuck you are talking about. It's hot in the south if you haven't noticed. You speak of handouts almost every time you post.

You have not done what we have, nor do you give a good goddamn about the plight of veterans or their families. More grist for your party line. It has nothing to do with officer or enlisted. We as soldiers, took care of soldiers and their families. etter than at any time I or history can remember. My first duty as an officer is to my men, my mission and the Army. A soldier cannot soldier well if we don't take care of him and his family. Him I take care of by training him well and relentlessly. His family by providing them everything I can legally provide them and showing them the resources. I see how it was when you were in. This ain't then. The only difference between me and that shit-scared PFC going out the door for the first time is 17 years. Experience, I use it to lead my soldiers. You use it to talk out of your ass. What I had issue with was you taking a message of respect and admiration and twisting it to suit your rationale and vision of a world order. And still, evidently have issue with.

Get your red flag out of the closet. Start waving. You partisan ass.

Paul G. said...

Redleg,

I served so you could wear huggies.
It's time you took them off.

redleg said...

And my dad was jumping out of airplanes during WWII so you did not have to grow up speaking Japanese or German. And this prooves? Exactly nothing I would say.

I cannot and will not change your mind with anything here. Except that you're an asshat. But I did that a couple of posts ago.

Paul G. said...

redhat says I'm an asshat.
AttenHut, everybody salute the big brass monkey.

Paul G. said...

'You speak of news reports a year old but don't know (pardon me ladies) what the fuck you are talking about.'

Really? Oh yeah liberal news media again. You've always got an out don't you.

The issue wasn't the AC, it was the lack of basic medical care, many were not seen by a physcian for 2 to 3 weeks at a time. Don't listen to me, I'm just a Liberal that wants the Officers to really give a fuck about the enlisted men.
Tell the nice folks here what a brand new Lt. makes vs. a pfc. I know you don't set your pay. Your officer buddies in congress do.

What are you doing blogging on the taxpayers nickel?
Ok it's probably your notebook and internet access, but wouldn't you be reaming out one of the guys under you for doing the same thing on duty?
Double Standard Republicans

redleg said...

Asshat...I mean Paul. I am off duty and at home. We don't work a regular 9-5 like you do. Or are you unemployed and on the dole? And I made 600 a month as a private. My pay is public record. Man, some officer torqued you off as private. Did he give you over-educated ass extra duty because you showed up late?

still no data from you. I won't waste any more time with you here. Go to my blog and waste bandspace there and save it for people responding to the issues here.

Paul G. said...

redleg Sir,
How much detail over what period of time do you want of broken promises to Veterans?

Apparently congress saw some of the broken promises, enough to call a bill the Keep Our Promise to America's Military Retirees Act.Clinton is Dirty tooIt was still happening last yearIt goes as far back as WWI Bonus ArmyI'm sure I can find failures that go back to the enactment of Revolutionary War Veterans PensionsThe rules have been changed from time to time but for servicemembers who enlisted between Korea and the middle of Vietnam the rules on spouses were changed in the middle of the game. Spouses were not supposed to cost through an insurance policy, they changed the rules on these carrer servicemen after the servicemen had done thier part.

I also suggest that with the increasing dependence on technology and need for a full time standing army of trained soldiers we need to broaden the opportunity for people to consider a carrer at the NCO level. Too many of our best and brightest look to civilian outlets for larger income to fufill the needs of later life.

I'm not saying that the servicemen we get are substandard, but the turnover is too high to be cost effective, and too many skills, and accumulated knowledge are lost at re-enlistment time.
In my book a re-enlistment bonus' are a bicycle tire patch on a much bigger problem.

Paul G. said...

'Man, some officer torqued you off as private. Did he give you over-educated ass extra duty because you showed up late?'

Actually no.
The only run-ins I ever had were with sergeants, other than the Air Force First Louie that refused to return my salute, and an army captain that insisted that I salute him in a no saluting zone.
I don't recall ever showing up late for anything, so that wouldn't have been it either.
We Over-educated asses know how to read watches and schedule time.

What rehearsal was putting you to sleep earlier sir?

redleg said...

Paul

read above comment. Watch local news.

Thinking about idiots like you keeps me awake and focused during boring rehearsals

I will think about you on the drop zone later on tommorrow and early the next morning while you sleep soundly with all of your illusions intact.

See how easy it is to slander combat veterans? You just did it.

Paul G. said...

I don't know where you say I slandered a combat vet. for combat service.
You never did provide a link to that post, I can't find it on your blog.
At this point there is only one conclusion I can draw.
You consider me a lost cause, and I consider you the same.
No point in further discussion of -any- kind.

Good luck on your drop.
I do respect what you do even if I dispise you as an individual.